Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

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Fooloso4
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Fooloso4 » April 4th, 2018, 8:59 pm

Kathyd:
I think most people would agree that my "rationalized response" was preferable to beating him with a stick!
Do you think that those are the only two options? I am not most people but I think it is preferable to leave him alone or seek the advice of a professional.
Well, according to Scripture a boy is not considered old enough to be responsible for his actions until the age of 12.
So, wait until he turns 12. Why the rush? At 11 he is old enough to at least have some say in the matter.
And today, most societies agree that parents are responsible for their children until they are 18.
I do not think that most societies would agree that you did the responsible thing. Do most societies say you should circumcise an 11 year old for masturbating?
Eleven is far too young to understand all the implications surrounding this issue, don't you think?
What are the implications? It is your understanding of the implications that I question.
I do like the idea of dedication to God.
Then dedicate yourself to God not sacrifice your son to God.
There was lots of porn including ones depicting strange fetishes …
And you think that removing his foreskin is going to curtail his interest? Did you find any credible contemporary research to back up your assumption? There is all kinds of stuff readily available with the a click. It is not something I have to worry about so I have not looked into it but I would be very surprised if the opinions of professionals included circumcision as a way of dealing with it.

I suppose none of this really matters anymore. What’s been done can’t be undone.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » April 5th, 2018, 6:19 am

Kathyd and Fooloso4:
There was lots of porn including ones depicting strange fetishes …
How to restrict children's access to porn is a separate issue which needs sorting. Porn is actually harmful when children are inadequately proofed against it by knowledge of entire relationships. Such knowledge is acquired from better quality reading and viewing material. Kathy's son sounds like someone who is intelligently curious and I am happy that Kathy did not subject him to frontal lobectomy.

Fooloso4
And you think that removing his foreskin is going to curtail his interest? Did you find any credible contemporary research to back up your assumption? There is all kinds of stuff readily available with the a click. It is not something I have to worry about so I have not looked into it but I would be very surprised if the opinions of professionals included circumcision as a way of dealing with it.

I suppose none of this really matters anymore. What’s been done can’t be undone.
No it cannot be undone unfortunately. But Kathy's soul can be sorted and that will benefit her son.(I say "soul" not in the narrow religious sense).

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LuckyR
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » April 6th, 2018, 2:08 am

Belindi wrote:
April 4th, 2018, 5:05 am
LuckyR wrote:
April 4th, 2018, 3:29 am


Oregon, as opposed to where? Are you implying that the great state of Oregon is an outlier? Where do you reside? Is circumcision illegal there? If not, it seems to me like you have a lot of work to do at home before you start commenting about communities with which you are unfamiliar.

As to my moral code, I didn't have any sons so I never had to cross that bridge. On the subject of my profession, it is completely ethical to provide a community accepted service if you are qualified and skilled, which I am.

You are free to be disgusted, as are those who oppose abortion, for example. The most practical way of expressing your disgust is to apply it to your personal life choices and those of your family. I wholeheartedly support you in that.
Lucky , it's precisely that you are so level headed and that it's entirely believable that you are qualified and skilled that I am concerned that you take a neutral stance. I don't regard you personally as a jobsworth and so my guess is that you are professionally neutral about circumcision because you have absorbed this professional rationale of neutrality. Professions have their own moral inertias. Please consider that, as Eduk put it , no child would circumcise himself or herself.

I live in England and am Scottish. I am a qualified nurse and I have never happened to help a surgeon to circumcise anyone. I doubt if any decent surgeon in the NHS would circumcise for reasons of religion or fashion. The medics' moral inertia is welfare and such status as medics have is exercised on behalf of the patient not his parents or his church. I imagine Oregon to be progressive and free , based on end of life choice which the state of Oregon extends to consenting adults, therefore I expected Oregon unlike the UK to support all rights of the child. The UK is backward about male child circumcision. I guess this must be because of 1. public apathy and 2. because in the UK there is a culture of being very polite about individuals' religions.

I surmise that the UK is backward about condemning cruel religious rituals because of religious intolerance in past centuries, and because here there is a real problem of integrating immigrants. Admittedly there's a worse degree of religious abuse than infant circumcision; there have been instances of child torture to rid the child of evil spirits although that is culpable in the UK.
I have real hopes that the better educated younger generation will eschew elective circumcision of infants.
You may be a rare person who might appreciate the mildly winding road that this subject matter has taken over the decades of my career. First of all, thanks for making me look up the meaning (and history) of "jobsworth", that was entertaining.

At the beginning of my training, I saw circs as just another responsibility that added nothing to my training nor to my compensation, thus I initially tried to (softly) talk parents out of the procedure. I had a success rate of exactly zero. Since the attempt took more time than handing them the form to sign, I switched gears and just got on with it. It is noteworthy that I can report that my attempts at presenting an alternative viewpoint, even in a very gentle manner, did, in fact diminish in some small to moderate degree, the rapport of the doctor/patient relationship.

Later in my current practice, the procedure is still not linked to my compensation and I already know there is no point in trying to talk parents out of it, so I concentrate on giving a high quality analgesia and procedure. As you know circs are commonly performed by lay people whose skill levels vary as well as their understanding of sterile fields. So to my mind: better me than who knows who.

It is a noticeable recent trend that they are becoming less popular. This makes me chuckle a bit since body modification has soared in popularity at the same time. That is, the tongue ring dad will recoil at the idea of his son getting circed, which is certainly perfectly fine and even logical, just humourous.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » April 6th, 2018, 4:58 am

Thank you Lucky for your understanding reply. That is the right tone for this and all debating websites. I also appreciate the practical issues as you explained them and thanks also for that info. It is a strange anomaly about body modification. What is all that about? Is it about taking control of one's own identity?

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LuckyR
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » April 6th, 2018, 12:29 pm

IMO the current body modification fad is just the standard lifting of the bar that young adults and adolescents always do to seperate themselves from their parents. In the 50s it was smoking and drinking, in the 60s it was psychedelic drugs and rock and roll, in the 70s (yes the 70s) it was punk and Mohawk haircuts, 80s was powder cocaine then crack, the 00s were notable for meth and tattoos, now we are dealing with tongue rings and holes in earlobes. Ho hum, been there, did that...
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Fooloso4 » April 6th, 2018, 1:06 pm

LuckyR:
IMO the current body modification fad is just the standard lifting of the bar that young adults and adolescents always do to seperate themselves from their parents.
What I find interesting is body modification in general across ages and cultures. Is circumcision just another example alongside neck stretching, lip stretching, ear stretching, feet binding, skull binding, piercing, etc.? Are there essential commentalities from one to the next - pain, aesthetics, impeding functionality? Ritual and religion often have something to do with it, but this does not explain why the act is seen as having religious significance.

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LuckyR
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » April 6th, 2018, 1:21 pm

I agree with you on the topic of circumcision, though I stand by my commentary as far as the current fad (as opposed to a cultural heritage) of ear gauges and tongue rings.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Fooloso4 » April 6th, 2018, 2:40 pm

LuckyR:
I agree with you on the topic of circumcision, though I stand by my commentary as far as the current fad (as opposed to a cultural heritage) of ear gauges and tongue rings.
I agree with this as well. The generational markings have become more permanent. Clothes can be changed, hair can be cut, but what do you do with a giant hole in your earlobe? Tattoo removal is a growing business. I suppose some kind of surgical remedy will be sought.

And, to get back on topic, how about uncircumcision surgery? Is it in little d’s future? An attempt to the fix?

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » April 7th, 2018, 1:47 am

If I could wish for the best possible outcome for young master d, it would be to recover quickly and never look back. Move on and never give this topic another thought.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by A_Seagull » April 11th, 2018, 12:10 am

IMO All people circumcised for non-medical reasons and without their informed consent should have the right to sue their parents for GBH and demand lots of money in compensation.
The Pattern Paradigm - yer can't beat it!

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » April 11th, 2018, 1:10 am

A_Seagull wrote:
April 11th, 2018, 12:10 am
IMO All people circumcised for non-medical reasons and without their informed consent should have the right to sue their parents for GBH and demand lots of money in compensation.
You clearly need to become more familiar with the nuances of informed consent. As to the demand for lots of money, you also need to learn more about child rearing.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » April 11th, 2018, 11:52 am

LuckyR wrote:
April 7th, 2018, 1:47 am
If I could wish for the best possible outcome for young master d, it would be to recover quickly and never look back. Move on and never give this topic another thought.
I just wanted this to be printed out again.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by A_Seagull » April 11th, 2018, 6:35 pm

LuckyR wrote:
April 11th, 2018, 1:10 am
A_Seagull wrote:
April 11th, 2018, 12:10 am
IMO All people circumcised for non-medical reasons and without their informed consent should have the right to sue their parents for GBH and demand lots of money in compensation.
You clearly need to become more familiar with the nuances of informed consent. As to the demand for lots of money, you also need to learn more about child rearing.
The good old ad hominem...

I would expect nothing less from you!!
The Pattern Paradigm - yer can't beat it!

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » April 12th, 2018, 1:47 am

A_Seagull wrote:
April 11th, 2018, 6:35 pm
LuckyR wrote:
April 11th, 2018, 1:10 am


You clearly need to become more familiar with the nuances of informed consent. As to the demand for lots of money, you also need to learn more about child rearing.
The good old ad hominem...

I would expect nothing less from you!!
Unfortunately for you this topic isn't about me. But good luck with your court case here in the Real World.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Fooloso4 » April 12th, 2018, 1:46 pm

Lucky’s unstated point is that minors cannot legally, and many would argue ethically, give informed consent. They are considered to be too young to make informed decisions.

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