Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

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A_Seagull
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by A_Seagull » April 12th, 2018, 4:53 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
April 12th, 2018, 1:46 pm
Lucky’s unstated point is that minors cannot legally, and many would argue ethically, give informed consent. They are considered to be too young to make informed decisions.
Well that is my point too. If they are too young to give informed consent then they should not be assaulted physically (or sexually for that matter.)
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LuckyR
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » April 13th, 2018, 1:00 am

A_Seagull wrote:
April 12th, 2018, 4:53 pm
Fooloso4 wrote:
April 12th, 2018, 1:46 pm
Lucky’s unstated point is that minors cannot legally, and many would argue ethically, give informed consent. They are considered to be too young to make informed decisions.
Well that is my point too. If they are too young to give informed consent then they should not be assaulted physically (or sexually for that matter.)
Should children receive medical care (since they can't give informed consent)? If so, who has the authority to give the consent?
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Eduk » April 13th, 2018, 3:32 am

In the case of children the parents/guardians/state have the authority.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » April 13th, 2018, 6:14 am

Lucky, your question is one to which you and I know the answer along with recent examples about hospitalised children , in the news media . I think that the USA's laws regarding care of the child will not be significantly different from the UK laws. I leave the answer to Seagull to whom your question is addressed.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by A_Seagull » April 13th, 2018, 5:40 pm

Eduk wrote:
April 13th, 2018, 3:32 am
In the case of children the parents/guardians/state have the authority.
And their children, on reaching maturity, should have the right to sue and claim damages from their parents.
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » April 13th, 2018, 6:49 pm

Seagull, it sounds far-fetched but I agree that parents are abusive who do unnecessary body modifications on their kids. And circumcision is a lot worse than some earring or tattoo.

Hospitalised kids sometimes have to be protected against parents who insist upon preserving their child's life as long as possible sometimes even when the child is suffering.

Parents are abusive who for religious reasons refuse to allow their child to have a blood transfusion.

Parents are abusive who indoctrinate their child into some religion or cult.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Eduk » April 14th, 2018, 3:38 am

Seagull you can only sue someone for something illegal. Not harming someone is considered legally ok, for the most part. And parents/guardians/states have a duty of care to the young, which is quite legal.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by A_Seagull » April 14th, 2018, 5:44 pm

Parents have the right to suggest to their children their beliefs and illusions; but they do not have the right to impose those beliefs and illusions on their children and especially not in a physical way from which there is no return.

And should the parents do this and should the children subsequently wish to seek redress then they should have the right to do so through the courts.
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Eduk » April 14th, 2018, 6:29 pm

Seagull I'm not sure what you are arguing with. Lucky asked if children should receive medical care. You seem to assuming all medical care is harmful. I'm not sure why.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by A_Seagull » April 14th, 2018, 10:52 pm

Eduk wrote:
April 14th, 2018, 6:29 pm
Seagull I'm not sure what you are arguing with. Lucky asked if children should receive medical care. You seem to assuming all medical care is harmful. I'm not sure why.
I refer you to my post on this thread on 11/04/18 4.10 pm.
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by LuckyR » April 15th, 2018, 3:19 am

A_Seagull wrote:
April 14th, 2018, 5:44 pm
Parents have the right to suggest to their children their beliefs and illusions; but they do not have the right to impose those beliefs and illusions on their children and especially not in a physical way from which there is no return.

And should the parents do this and should the children subsequently wish to seek redress then they should have the right to do so through the courts.
Anyone can sue anybody for anything. That is not in question. However winning the lawsuit, that is a very different matter. Like I said before, good luck with your lawsuit.
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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Belindi » April 15th, 2018, 3:38 am

LuckyR wrote:
April 15th, 2018, 3:19 am
A_Seagull wrote:
April 14th, 2018, 5:44 pm
Parents have the right to suggest to their children their beliefs and illusions; but they do not have the right to impose those beliefs and illusions on their children and especially not in a physical way from which there is no return.

And should the parents do this and should the children subsequently wish to seek redress then they should have the right to do so through the courts.
Anyone can sue anybody for anything. That is not in question. However winning the lawsuit, that is a very different matter. Like I said before, good luck with your lawsuit.
I agree with Seagull as moralist and also with Lucky as legalist. Laws reflect morality albeit they can be slow to catch up with morality.
I say good luck to all ex-children who are suing adults for historical abuse.It's happening now.

There will be extenuating circumstances for abusive adults who can plead that circumcision of males was the custom at that time and place.

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Eduk » April 15th, 2018, 3:40 am

Seagull I may be wrong. But I think the point lucky was making is that if a child broke their arm, for example, who would have the right to consent for them to receive medical care.
Again I might be wrong about the point lucky was making, but why do you think lucky would make that point?

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by Kathyd » April 15th, 2018, 6:51 pm

Well, I would hope that we'd all agree that, regardless of how you feel about circumcision, it's certainly a parent's right to circumcise (or to not circumcise) their child. Until of legal age, parents are morally and even legally responsible for the welfare and actions of their children, so obviously they should have the right to make basic decisions concerning their welfare. And it is also obviously a very personal decision which nobody has the right to judge anyone else for. And suggesting children should have the right to sue their parents over something like this is ludicrous. The truth is that you do not have the right to judge me or anyone else over such a personal decision. Who are you to judge?

This is what always happens in the circumcision debate. Instead of rationally debating the pros and cons, people inevitable bring up morality, 'rights', and begin morally denigrating each other, i.e. 'judging'.

Like this:
As it was you began with cold calculation and followed through apparently without any remorse.
All is not lost and he will probably forgive you if you are truly sorry.
But Kathy's soul can be sorted and that will benefit her son.
This is classic shaming. As if I should be remorseful and I need forgiveness for doing something that a majority of people in my society do (75% of men are circed in the U.S.). "cold calculation.." As if I'm doing something truly evil and despicable.

I don't have anything to be remorseful for, and I don't need any forgiveness. Because I didn't do anything wrong. I just made a personal decision concerning my own child, which I not only have the right to do, but also the legal responsibility to do, and you make it sound like I committed some kind of crime. And not just a 'moral crime' but even an actual legal crime, as if it should be illegal with fines and punishments, and civil suits for 'damages'. It truly does a disservice to the discussion and is combative in nature. And it only drives people further apart, rather than bringing them together.

I'd also like to comment on this, because it's similar to what many of my friends said,
And you think that removing his foreskin is going to curtail his interest? Did you find any credible contemporary research to back up your assumption? There is all kinds of stuff readily available with the a click. It is not something I have to worry about so I have not looked into it but I would be very surprised if the opinions of professionals included circumcision as a way of dealing with it.
First, I've already posted in this thread all the examples of how historically circumcision was used to curtail masturbation and other 'excessive' sexual practices. In fact, circumcision began in the U.S. as a means of curtailing masturbation in teen boys.

And second, doesn't the premise make sense at face value? For example, let's take eating sweets as an example. Let's suppose that eating sweets was 4 times more pleasurable for you. Or maybe 10 or even 100 or a 1000 times. Wouldn't you probably eat more sweets? Or let's say that eating sweets became 4 times less pleasurable for your taste buds. Or maybe 10 times less, or how about you get no pleasure at all? Don't you think that at some point, with less and less pleasure received from eating sweets, that you would eat fewer sweet foods? Of course you would. And the same should be true for any other pleasure. Don't you think my son would masturbate more if it were 1000 times more pleasurable? Or a million? And wouldn't he masturbate less if it were 1000 times less pleasurable? Or how about if it didn't feel good in the least? It seems obvious to me that at some point, whether the pleasure becomes more or less, it will lead to a change in the respective behavior. This is really common sense, and I'm puzzled that anyone would dispute this. :?

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Re: Circumcision. Seeking opinions based on personal experiences

Post by A_Seagull » April 15th, 2018, 8:36 pm

Kathyd wrote:
April 15th, 2018, 6:51 pm
it's certainly a parent's right to circumcise (or to not circumcise) their child.
No, parents do not have that right. Children are people too.
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