Social anxiety

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Maxcady10001
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Social anxiety

Post by Maxcady10001 » November 15th, 2017, 1:11 am

Is there a difference between what is called our conscience, and social anxiety? I don't believe there is such a difference. What we call our conscience, is only the desire to submit to social pressure. It is kind of funny that most people believe there to be a distinction between, what is called our conscience, and social anxiety. Almost like an authoritarian society at work. Our conscience being what tells right from wrong.

Burning ghost
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Burning ghost » November 15th, 2017, 4:25 am

There is a difference. Social anxiety is specific to people who feel scared in certain social situations where conscience is certainly concerned with fear, but generally as a balance between wants and needs, and rights and wrongs. "Social anxiety" is usually used to describe some kind of imbalance between societal norms and how they view themselves as appropriated toward it.

As generalization, yeah, I agree. As a term used to study a certain problem certain individuals have difficulty dealing with social situations, it is not merely about conscience, but rather conscience perspective.

I would say "shyness" is more appropriate a term to put alongside "social anxiety", but equally so people may react to socially anxious situations in the opposite manner and rather than being overly self-conscious flip into a pattern of outlandish arrogance. In both situations it is basically a failure to adjust to what is deemed "normal" social behavior. Given the complexity of human interactions, and the complexity of human cultural constructs, it is hardly a surprise that these issue occur. Conscience is certainly entwined within this dynamic as the degree to which we can empathise with others, and understand the societal ethics, the better we can avoid placing ourselves in situations where we draw negative attention to ourselves.
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Georgeanna
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Georgeanna » November 15th, 2017, 4:43 am

:!:
Maxcady10001 wrote:Is there a difference between what is called our conscience, and social anxiety? I don't believe there is such a difference. What we call our conscience, is only the desire to submit to social pressure. It is kind of funny that most people believe there to be a distinction between, what is called our conscience, and social anxiety. Almost like an authoritarian society at work. Our conscience being what tells right from wrong.
I disagree. Conscience is not 'only the desire to submit to social pressure'.
I agree. It is about judgement about what is right or wrong. This can be a subjective inherent feeling resulting in regret if acting against own moral values. Or yes, if we have internalized institutional social or religious norms then this probably links to some anxiety re punishment, being criticised by others.

However, this is different from a 'social anxiety' which can be defined as 'nervousness in social situations' ( from wiki ).

What do you understand by 'social anxiety' ?

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Greta
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Greta » November 15th, 2017, 4:50 am

As an introvert, my concern is socialising until I'm drained, because once I'm tired, my "socially acceptable" filters weaken and I start speaking completely frankly. Such a lack of tact and consideration leads to discord that I can do without at this time in my life. For those who love solitude, socialising with strangers can be tiresome for all concerned.

Conscience and social anxiety operate in a social human hyper-reality rather than physical reality. They are terrains in social jungle of human opinion, where rules of engagement are often enforced by an iron fist in a velvet glove. There are real stakes in the social space, despite being abstract, but the social space can also be largely ignored without much drama, especially with the capacity to communicate online.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Maxcady10001 » November 15th, 2017, 8:51 am

Burning Ghost
I would not restrict social anxiety to only people in certain situations, as we are all socially anxious to some degree at all times. How is our conscience telling us "right" from " wrong" not presenting us with possible imbalances in societal norms? Our conscience is a manifestation of the actions that would provoke the most social anxiety, and create the greatest imbalances in societal norms. Our conscience is the most active when there is a possible imbalance in societal norms. When we are about to do something socially unacceptable. "Shyness" is "complete" submission to what is deemed socially acceptable. A "shy" person does not interact well because the social pressure acting on them is too great and causes anxiety over possible actions. Their conscience is too active, so actively telling them right from wrong, most actions seem impossible. I would argue someone acting arrogantly would have a less active conscience, and would be less socially anxious. That a person acting arrogantly is not acting with the same degree of conscientiousness or social anxiety as a shy person.
Georganna
I could say society tells what is right or wrong, so our conscience is the desire to submit to social pressure.
Formation of a conscience does not come before interactions with society. What is "right" or "wrong" is what actions will provoke the most social anxiety, which actions will be deemed socially unacceptable.
I would say the nervousness in social situations is the fear of being negatively judged, and our conscience operates around that fear.
Greta
Do you feel that what you perceive as becoming "tired" could be assimilation into the group, hence no longer feeling so restricted in responses.

Burning ghost
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Burning ghost » November 15th, 2017, 9:07 am

Max -

I am not going to question your interpretations too much. People are different, and we all have "anxieties", but I was simply drawing a line between serious social problems and mere day-to-day social interactions. It is when the fear is disproportionate that problems arise. Like Greta I am "introverted" too, and in a quite big way, but I score very high in "openness."

We make distinctions between sadness and depression, happiness and mania, so I see nothing wrong with making such a distinction between how we cope with social situations.

Overly confident or overly shy people are both present anti-social behaviours and are often considered rude and self-absorbed (which is likely true and certainly not something I would measure up against "conscience".)

If you're really interested in this then look at The Big Five in the world of psychology and their different aspects. It is a very interesting area ;) In that respect I would say "conscience" is enveloped within The Big Five and how we navigate socially.
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Maxcady10001
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Maxcady10001 » November 15th, 2017, 9:24 am

Burning Ghost
I posted this because of something I read, do you believe it was a misinterpretation?
"For us it would be enough to say that in a group the individual I'd brought under conditions which allow him to throw off the répressions of his unconscious instinctual impulses. The apparently new characteristics which he then displays are in fact the manifestation of this unconscious, in which all that is evillage in the human mind is contained as a predisposition. We can find no difficulty in understanding the disappearance of conscience or of a sense of responsibility in these circumstances. It has long been our contention thar 'social anxiety' is the essence of what is called conscience."

Sigmund Freud, Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego. (Pg.7)

-- Updated November 15th, 2017, 9:32 am to add the following --

It was auto correct that put the I'd there. It is just supposedan to say brought under. There is also no accent in repressions

-- Updated November 15th, 2017, 9:34 am to add the following --

This comment is riddled with mistakes I apologize

Burning ghost
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Burning ghost » November 15th, 2017, 9:35 am

I never said "misinterpretation". I am not hugely familiar with Freud tbh so not sure about the context and the use of terminology.

As it stands I would not go so far as to say "essence".But I repeat, I am not sure of the full context of the statement. There is no denying that social interaction and conscience are mostly indivisible because we are essentially social creatures through and through, so I cannot disagree in that context.
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Maxcady10001
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Maxcady10001 » November 15th, 2017, 9:47 am

Corrected for mistakes

"For us it would be enough to say that in a group the individual is brought under conditions which allow him to throw off the repressions of his instinctual impulses. The apparently new characteristics which he then displays are in fact the manifestations of this unconscious, in which all that is evil in the human mind is contained as a predisposition. We can find no difficulty in understanding the disappearance of conscience or of responsibility in these circumstances. It has long been our contention that 'social anxiety' is the essence of what is called conscience."
Sigmund Freud, Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego. (Pg.7)

-- Updated November 15th, 2017, 9:49 am to add the following --

(Pg.6-7)

Chili
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Chili » November 15th, 2017, 10:59 am

People feel social anxiety when they are concerned about being accepted or criticized socially for something they can't help or something they want to do - often the thing you want to be accepted for is antisocial and definitely not something which we are bid to do by our conscience or super-ego. The desire to be socially accepted is just another urge from the id, and so social anxiety is much like food anxiety or fight-or-flight reactions.

Georgeanna
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Georgeanna » November 15th, 2017, 11:28 am

I could say society tells what is right or wrong, so our conscience is the desire to submit to social pressure.
Formation of a conscience does not come before interactions with society. What is "right" or "wrong" is what actions will provoke the most social anxiety, which actions will be deemed socially unacceptable.
I would say the nervousness in social situations is the fear of being negatively judged, and our conscience operates around that fear.
Yes, of course, the individual is part of society. However, there are different sub-cultures and significant others within society which an individual bounces between; sometimes with uncomfortable clashes and tension.

We can have a variety of philosophical, religious, psychological approaches to this subject.
I adopt a common sense view - my individual conscience, or sense of right and wrong, has been formed or refined after assessing all the factors concerned.

It is subjective and helps motivate action hopefully towards a beneficial outcome.
Conscience, here, does not operate around fear. Rather than worry about what is socially acceptable, shouldn't we ask questions as to the justification for society's rules ? This would include an assessment of e.g. the objective rules of some religions.

I agree that there can be overlap between the formation of one's own conscience and the possibility of being negatively judged, especially by those whose values you have rejected. This does not necessarily entail anxiety.

Having a conscience is not the same as the 'social anxiety disorder' as attributed to Freud and the need for psychoanalysis.
There may always be some conflict if searching for the approval of a parent whose values differ from yours.
But this is where your independent view and conscience comes into play. Do you go along with unacceptable views for the sake of external peace and quiet. What then your internal sense of integrity and personal identity?

Maxcady10001
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Maxcady10001 » November 15th, 2017, 6:09 pm

Chili
Since you are somewhat familiar with Freud's work, I'd like to ask this question about something that was not clear in the book on group psychology. Is it possible for a group without a leader to exist?
Georgeanna
The answer to your first question is yes. If I did not I may have had some very unpleasant encounters. Ex. I was on a crowded train, and I and many others were forced to stand. And on one of the stops a man gets on the train and begins harassing passengers, only verbal abuse though. I did not say anything, as I was not being harassed and of course no one else was saying anything. That is an example of going along with unacceptable views for extrenal peace and quiet. I went along with the unacceptable views of the person harassing and the appeasement policy of the passengers so I would not be bothered.
Also, one does not form their own conscience, it would not be definitionally a conscience if it was consciously self created. Also, how are these beneficial outcomes you mention different from ones that provoke the least amount of social anxiety.

-- Updated November 15th, 2017, 6:10 pm to add the following --

There is supposed to be a question mark at the end of the last sentence.

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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Steve3007 » November 15th, 2017, 6:44 pm

To me, there is a difference between social anxiety and conscience. Social anxiety is (to me) a vivid sense of what one must look and sound like to other people ("self consciousness") coupled with a desire not to be disliked. Conscience is a desire not to see others hurt - empathy.

Personally, I've learned to hide my social anxiety so that I appear reasonably relaxed in social situations. But this appearance of relaxation takes effort and is therefore tiring. Unlike Greta, my pathological desire not to be disliked or to be involved in a socially awkward situation means that, even when tired, I don't weaken and start blurting out what I really mean (I still wince at socially awkward situations that spring back to my mind from decades ago). I soldier on with the social niceties to the end. But the end result tends to be avoidance of large numbers of social events, because of the mental effort involved.
"Even men with steel hearts love to see a dog on the pitch."

Chili
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Chili » November 15th, 2017, 6:49 pm

Maxcady10001 wrote:Chili
Since you are somewhat familiar with Freud's work, I'd like to ask this question about something that was not clear in the book on group psychology. Is it possible for a group without a leader to exist?
Groups often have shifts of leadership, and splits and divisions such that part of the group follows one leader while another subgroup favors another. Friendly groups who are getting together for recreation often follow no specific leader, or people makes turns making suggestions.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Social anxiety

Post by Maxcady10001 » November 15th, 2017, 7:05 pm

I've recognized those aspects of groups, but is it possible for a group to be leaderless? Will there always be someone that is deferred to, even in the smallest possible group interactions (2-3 people)? Because considering your point on friendly groups there is always a leader.

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