Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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Burning ghost
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost »

I think people are not taking note of the OP and the title here ... I find it strange.

The use of the word "MUST" is not the kind of thing something says when they wish to have a discussion. They OP clearly shows a need to be provocative in order to send a ideological message.

I am interested how someone can make, and adhere, to such sweeping statements and claim they are rational? By the same rationale should countries also ban evangelists, socialists or hippies? How about banning people from entering the country if they own any post-modernist philosophy? Or say a copy of Mein Kampf, or Das Capital? Surely people who read such historically 'evil' pieces of writing should be banned from entering the country?

Further more, how about banning anyone who questions the democratic process or watches pornography? How about banning people who refuse to wear clothes or those who own rats? How about banning anyone who has been trained to uise deadly force or who has owned a gun? How about banning anyone who has googled "chemical explosives"?

There is no room for expression of opinions in a reasonable way if you come to the table demanding you know what MUST BE DONE. I cannot refute an ideology because an ideologue is not someone willing to compromise or discuss, they are only willing to preach and use empty rhetoric.

Immigration control is a means to control who comes into the country. We want people to enter the country who are productive and also be open to helping peole in need looking for asylum. The extent of immigration is the issue and making a blanket ban on one demographic is frankly repulsive to me. Should screening be more thorough for persons from certain areas of the world with certain levels of education and political persuasion? I don't see why not. If a country is at war it does not make sense to just open your borders to anyone coming from a war zone, but it seems equally inhumane to suggest we should close all borders to all people stuck in a war zone.

If a great many people are flooding into the country and actively causing violence then it needs to be dealt with. There will always be bad people, and some will always slip through the net. The price of means exposure to danger. The job of the government is to keep the exposure to danger down as much as reasonably possible without destroying the freedom and conscience of its citizens.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Sy Borg »

Judaka wrote: December 25th, 2017, 12:34 am
Australia is rapidly becoming Chinese. If you think westerners don't like Muslims, note the Chinese government's attitude towards Islam. So, Daschshund, Aussies have no need to worry about Muslims, rather we old Caucasians appear to be headed towards becoming second class citizens in our own country.
Is this xenophobic propaganda at work or do you actually have some statistics to back this up? The demographics of Australia show that only just recently did Chinese immigrants overtake British and Kiwis, Australia is still dominantly caucasian and will be for a long time to come.
I assume you are American, thus the enthusiasm to take offence. No, I am not at all xenophobic, just watching what happens in my local areas.

Further, the kind of political correctness displayed in your post simply plays into politicians' hands, who quickly accuse anyone worried about migration levels of racism and xenophobia. This leaves the polity free to pander to big business requests for more workers and customers while forcing regular people to be crammed up ever more without any additional infrastructure to cater for the extra populations. The issue is cramming extra people in when there's not enough room for comfortable living and refusing to spend on infrastructure that could soften the blows to peoples' lifestyles.
the remarkable progress which served to make it (still) such a great nation, were firmly grounded in the core values of the culture and religion of its founding fathers- the majority of whom were , as Thomas Jefferson himself noted: white, Anglo-Saxon protestant males.
Not females. Not blacks. Not Asians or subcontinentals. Not Jews. They weren't allowed to contribute because they were deemed not good enough by white Anglo males. That is hardly an advertisement for white Anglo males, whom in my opinion need to get over themselves and appreciate that any variations in intelligence are FAR greater within the ranks of any racial or cultural group than between them.

This whole alt right, Neo Nazi business is a pathetic last ditch stand by the weak to appear strong. The very people doing the marching are weak because they tend to be clear examples of how white Anglo males can be significantly less intelligent and civilised than most of the black and brown people they deride. The Bell curve applies to all groups.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Judaka »

I assume you are American, thus the enthusiasm to take offence. No, I am not at all xenophobic, just watching what happens in my local areas.
Yes you assume a lot, no I am Australian. In what I've seen of your posts, you're very scientifically minded and so I thought it wouldn't be a big deal to ask for evidence to a statement that suggests a hostile Chinese take over and it's surprising to me that you come back to me with anecdotal evidence instead. I'm not politically correct at all, I'm very blunt and you've said that whites are on track to become second class citizens in Australia, a statement that doesn't make sense to me, since you made such a bold statement without offering a shred of evidence and based on Australia's history of politicising xenophobic fears of a Chinese immigration threat, I thought your statement fit right at home with that.

That doesn't mean I accused you personally of being xenophobic or racist, I've already commented in this thread my own concerns about immigration, now you're talking about logistical and infrastructure problems and I'm not going to call that xenophobic propaganda, or get my knickers in a twist over that, you raise some good points. However if you want to go around saying that whites are going to become SECOND CLASS CITIZENS in Australia then I'm going to call you out on your ********, there's just no evidence for that. Australia is extremely caucasian relative to other Western countries, we are also one of the toughest Western countries when it comes to Muslim immigration. Yet you say the reason Australia doesn't need to worry is because we're going to be taken over by the Chinese and behave like the Chinese government. Absolutely ridiculous and honestly as far as I am concerned, political correctness is no worse than defending bad information by labeling criticism as politically correct.

And to reiterate, I am actually rather anti-immigration, I'm not replying because I am offended by your statement but I think statements like yours damage the cause of treating immigration as a serious issue with incorrect, xenophobic arguments. I want people to take immigration as a serious issue for the right reasons, similarly banning all Muslims on the basis of terrorism which has killed less than 10 people in Australia since 1996, is stupid and simply creates opposition like the Labor party who act like tolerant heroes fighting against bigots, by wanting more Muslim immigration, instead of looking at the real issues.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Sy Borg »

Sure, there was some Xmas hyperbole in there. Your level of intensity is similarly unhelpful. Yes, there debates need more rigour, and I concede on that. However, they also require more calm. Going off at people is not a great way to ensure that your point gets across.

Also, your claim that there is no evidence of Chinese influence is disingenuous for an Australian so soon after the blanket coverage Dastyari resignation for his influencing by Chinese businessmen. Do you believe he is the only one being compromised? How about the relationship between local governments and developers? Where there's powerful people waving big money around there is influence.

Further, it's simply obvious that Australia will become more Chinese. How can it not? It's probably the right thing to happen from a global perspective too, even if less convenient for existing residents. When there are extreme population buildups in powerful countries with much less populated and powerful regional centres not far away, what is the logical consequence?
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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Sure, there was some Xmas hyperbole in there. Your level of intensity is similarly unhelpful. Yes, there debates need more rigour, and I concede on that. However, they also require more calm. Going off at people is not a great way to ensure that your point gets across.
I don't think you appreciate the seriousness of your claim but I'm not going to lecture you, I'm young and intense... what can I say?
Also, your claim that there is no evidence of Chinese influence is disingenuous for an Australian so soon after the blanket coverage Dastyari resignation for his influencing by Chinese businessmen. Do you believe he is the only one being compromised? How about the relationship between local governments and developers? Where there's powerful people waving big money around there is influence.
This is a thread about immigration but to clarify I didn't make that claim and it is extremely evident that China wants to exert influence over Australia, they have blatantly said that Australia should stop relying on America for economic and military support and turn to China instead. The government of China, the business elite of China and immigrants from China are all separate things. My opinion on all three things is not remotely similar and those three things aren't remotely similar. Surely you can also see that? However all of this is a far cry from Australian government becoming Chinese and Whites becoming 2nd class citizens.

Further, it's simply obvious that Australia will become more Chinese. How can it not?
I don't disagree with that but I disagree that this has any relevance to the discussion, are you suggesting that what you said was a hyperbole of this? This statement and your previous statement are nothing alike...
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Hereandnow
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Hereandnow »

Please just give this up. Who cares who came up with what first? Are you trying to say western culture and people are superior because they invented so many useful things? The universities are FULL, in the US, FULL of brilliant people from places that invented precious little. Go to MIT or Silicon Valley: do you think these are dominated by kids of European descent?

The US attracts the best from other nations because its universities produce the most brilliant scholars, engineers and business people, and there are the best of the best from the Middle East among them. You think America has come this far because of its own? It steals talent from other countries where smart kids are happy to come here where things are supposed to be immigration friendly. This imbecilic drive to keep out foreigners is going to drive these kids elsewhere. I wouldn't want to bring my genius to a place that is swayed by the mentality of hateful idiots like Trump.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Sy Borg »

Judaka wrote: December 25th, 2017, 8:43 am
Sure, there was some Xmas hyperbole in there. Your level of intensity is similarly unhelpful. Yes, there debates need more rigour, and I concede on that. However, they also require more calm. Going off at people is not a great way to ensure that your point gets across.
I don't think you appreciate the seriousness of your claim but I'm not going to lecture you, I'm young and intense... what can I say?
Do you appreciate the seriousness of the need to remain calm in public discourse? It may be the difference between civilisation and nuclear apocalypse.
Judaka wrote:The government of China, the business elite of China and immigrants from China are all separate things. My opinion on all three things is not remotely similar and those three things aren't remotely similar. Surely you can also see that? However all of this is a far cry from Australian government becoming Chinese and Whites becoming 2nd class citizens.
I had already agreed that my earlier claim was hyperbolic and based on insufficient evidence. Also remember, some of the migrants will be part of those business and political networks, and it's common knowledge that a fair few of them are briefed by the Chinese government to spy on other Australian Chinese.

I have always expected that Aust would become largely Chinese and I was in favour of that, not being impressed with Australian anti-intellectualism.
What swayed me was 1) odd responses to my dog by a portion of Chinese leading to concerns that dogs will be ever more regulated, and suddenly dogs are on the agenda at the most recent local election, and 2) the news of seventeen thousand Chinese migrants petitioned against the Safe Schools programs designed to reduce cruelty and violence. Such a small proportion of the population, as you noted, yet galvanised so effectively. This did not fill me with hope for the white rabble from I emerged.

It's a shame that the political skills and galvanisation was to aimed at preserving ancient cruelty over modern decency: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-23/s ... 00/7777030. When Chinese migrants show more respect and regard for the vulnerable - animals and gay people - and believe in giving women equal rights, then I will be less on my guard.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Judaka »

Do you appreciate the seriousness of the need to remain calm in public discourse? It may be the difference between civilisation and nuclear apocalypse.
You really do love your hyperboles. Now while it may be hard for you gauge online, I wrote everything without emotion. I think you are basing all of this on the fact I used the word xenophobic because i haven't insulted you or diminished you in any other way. You still haven't stopped assuming about me so let me reiterate that I am not offended, angry, upset or anything else. I called you out on a xenophobic, blatantly untrue comment and I thought I was relatively civilized about it. I didn't call you xenophobic, I didn't call you anything. I don't feel what I said translates into me being some kind of easily offended, politically correct bigot.
Also remember, some of the migrants will be part of those business and political networks, and it's common knowledge that a fair few of them are briefed by the Chinese government to spy on other Australian Chinese.
"A fair few migrants have been briefed by the Chinese government to spy on other Chinese migrants", can you substantiate this claim?

1. What do you mean dogs will be more regulated? As in they need to be walked with a leash in parks or what? I am not super keen on the idea of being accommodating for immigrants, they should be coming here to assimilate at least a little but it might be entirely reasonable request if I knew what you were talking about.
2. As for this petition, I would have signed it as well, I am completely against the idea of gender fluidity and similar unscientific, politically motivated ideas being taught to children. Instead of being taught such nonsense, everyone should be taught to be tolerant and use meritocracy regardless of gender fluidity or not. I actually completely detest these kinds of federally funded programs so good work Chinese immigrants.

Similarly you pointed out that you disliked Australian anti-intellectualism, so you would admit that there are substantial proportions of Australians that would do things you would disagree with. However because these people are white it's not a big issue but if Chinese immigrants do things you disagree then it's a racial issue. Believe me Greta, I am very much against immigrants coming here and asking for special consideration for their culture/religion, I want extremely tightly controlled immigration and I want preservation of culture of the host country to be the foremost concern of any government. Multiculturalism doesn't work well, how can we reconcile completely contradicting values? Someone, or everyone, is going to get burned by that.

I am so ready to bandwagon on your general message that we should be cautious with regards to immigration but why the hyperboles, misleading anecdotal evidence and so on? I am not a very political person, mostly I only care about my philosophies but perhaps immigration is one of the few things I do care about because it can't be undone. I am here at this forum for the purpose of entertainment and personal development, I am certainly not here to needlessly lambast people for their political views but perhaps it's because you are Australian and I know you are an intelligent person that I bother to have this debate with you. Your way of thinking is messed up Greta, it's wrong on so many levels... but I'm not a soldier on the battlefield and I'm not looking to take you down.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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Judaka wrote: December 25th, 2017, 11:24 pm
Do you appreciate the seriousness of the need to remain calm in public discourse? It may be the difference between civilisation and nuclear apocalypse.
You really do love your hyperboles. Now while it may be hard for you gauge online, I wrote everything without emotion. I think you are basing all of this on the fact I used the word xenophobic because i haven't insulted you or diminished you in any other way. You still haven't stopped assuming about me so let me reiterate that I am not offended, angry, upset or anything else. I called you out on a xenophobic, blatantly untrue comment and I thought I was relatively civilized about it. I didn't call you xenophobic, I didn't call you anything. I don't feel what I said translates into me being some kind of easily offended, politically correct bigot.
Also remember, some of the migrants will be part of those business and political networks, and it's common knowledge that a fair few of them are briefed by the Chinese government to spy on other Australian Chinese.
"A fair few migrants have been briefed by the Chinese government to spy on other Chinese migrants", can you substantiate this claim?
Not hard to find information about this: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/australia-s ... operations
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

Scribbler60 wrote: December 24th, 2017, 11:22 am
Spectrum wrote: December 24th, 2017, 1:20 amI mentioned above one need to take into consideration the Arabic words from the original Quran and not merely rely on translations but one do not necessary have to be a Native Arabic speaker. In any case there are no more Native Speakers of the Classical Quranic Arabic at present.
I don't want to get too far off the page here, but the fact is that Koranic scholars insist that in order to properly understand the book and its message, you must be a native Arabic speaker.

From QuranicPath:
Had the Qur'an been in a foreign language, it would not be possible for the speakers of the language who received it or the messenger, to take its message to the world. In other words, although the Quranic message is for the world, this verse is more specifically addressed to those who understood the language (..."so that you may understand")...emphasising on appreciating what would have happened had it been in a language other than their tongue. This is proved in the following verses:

"So We have revealed an Arabic Quran to you, in order that you may warn the capital city and all who live nearby..." (Qur'an 42:7)

"We have made the Qur'an easy in your language so that they may take heed it." (Qur'an 44:58)

"If We had made it a foreign Quran, they would have said, ‘If only its verses were clear! What? Foreign speech to an Arab?’ Say, ‘It is guidance and healing for those who have faith, but the ears of the disbelievers are heavy, they are blind to it, it is as if they are being called from a distant place.’ (Qur'an 41:44)

So when Allah says:

"We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an so you people may understand / reason" (Qur'an 12:2)

We can clearly see it is in reference to the above verses - to the blessing that Allah revealed clear wisdom and guidance in a language they can understand and be able to reason over (Arabic).
In short, if you're not born Arabic, you have no chance of properly interpreting the Koran.

Note that I'm not defending this view; simply pointing out that, like pretty much every other religion, there's a basis for exclusion to maintain the purity of the "chosen ones." It's a way of invoking the No True Scotsman fallacy on a massive scale.
I am not a Native Arabic Speaker.

In the Quran it is stated Allah sent respective messengers in their own language to the various places.
The question whether Muhammad is the final messenger is very debatable.
Thus from the above and related verses, it can be argued that the Quran was only intended to be restricted to Arabic Speakers then and confined to the Arabia Peninsula.
Therefore the Quran and Islam as intended by Allah should not have been spread to speakers of other languages where Allah has sent their respective messengers.

But the fact and evidences is, Islam and Quran was spread outside the Arabian Peninsula to other non-Arabic speakers. In one way, this was against Allah's intention.

Since the Quran was spread to other non-Arabic speaking location world-wide it is not practical for all Muslims to learn and understand Arabic.
Therefore in the current circumstance, the imperative the Quran must be read in Arabic is not practical at all.
In addition, like Latin, the classical Quranic Arabic is outdated.
Plus there is no one Quran that is traceable to Muhammad's time. There are around 7 Qurans which were written long after the death of the prophets.

Given the current circumstances and the constraints there is no good reason to demand that one must be a Native Arabic Speaker to read and interpret the Quran.
However to understand the Quran efficiently one need to be familiar with basic elements and basic grammar of Arabic. At present this can be learned easily from the Internet.

What is critical is when trying to understand the Quran one must use the hermeneutics approach and refer to as many views and references as possible. For any problematic areas I refer to 50+ English translations of the Quran.

Given so much terrible evils and violence from SOME evil prone Muslims and the need to find solutions, we must challenged those who resort to the 'chosen one' elitist attitude and countered they don't have any sound basis to their claim.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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Not hard to find information about this: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/australia-s ... operations
What happened to calm discourse? As I said I don't have much interest in politics, so I wasn't aware of this. What is your concern regarding this though? This is about China trying to protect itself from criticism and ideas from Chinese living abroad, doesn't really affect us. It is a little boring to talk to people who are just looking for 'easy wins". You broodingly tell me "not hard to find information about this" as if I'm an idiot, give me your link and no interest in responding to anything else. You've been super defensive from the start, if you don't come on forums to debate then what do you come for? Circle jerks?
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Sy Borg »

Judaka wrote: December 26th, 2017, 7:32 am
Not hard to find information about this: https://www.sbs.com.au/news/australia-s ... operations
What happened to calm discourse? As I said I don't have much interest in politics, so I wasn't aware of this. What is your concern regarding this though?
Calm discourse remains from this end, although tenuous from yours. Brevity does not equate to frenzy. The topic is quite dull to me, so I'm not putting much energy into it.

Why assume that I have a "concern"? I just make observations and think about the future and that's all I've done here. I don't bother editing my thoughts because people may misunderstand - that's their problem, not mine. To that end, I'd like to set you a little exercise - try to find a single comment - even just one - made by me in this topic that betrays "concern", that is not simply an observation (regardless of purported accuracy).
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Judaka »

"who quickly accuse anyone worried about migration levels" - so you'r worried about migration levels - isn't that a concern?

"I have always expected that Aust would become largely Chinese and I was in favour of that, not being impressed with Australian anti-intellectualism.
What swayed me was" - what you're talking about are your personal feelings, not observations and your personal feelings are concern towards the behaviour of Chinese immigrants.

"When Chinese migrants show more respect and regard for the vulnerable - animals and gay people - and believe in giving women equal rights, then I will be less on my guard." - in your mind, thats an observation? Talking about your wishes and mentality?

I don't really agree with the premise that you are making simple observations, nothing you've said makes sense based on the evidence. It's your imagination or extreme hyperbole at best, something you've admitted. Anyway I'm not going to have an argument about who's mad and who isn't. You're bored, i'm bored, gunna stop posting here.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Sy Borg »

You are still misunderstanding my angle. Never mind. Some minds simply don't connect well with each other.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost »

Judaka wrote: December 27th, 2017, 1:14 am "who quickly accuse anyone worried about migration levels" - so you'r worried about migration levels - isn't that a concern?

"I have always expected that Aust would become largely Chinese and I was in favour of that, not being impressed with Australian anti-intellectualism.
What swayed me was" - what you're talking about are your personal feelings, not observations and your personal feelings are concern towards the behaviour of Chinese immigrants.

"When Chinese migrants show more respect and regard for the vulnerable - animals and gay people - and believe in giving women equal rights, then I will be less on my guard." - in your mind, thats an observation? Talking about your wishes and mentality?

I don't really agree with the premise that you are making simple observations, nothing you've said makes sense based on the evidence. It's your imagination or extreme hyperbole at best, something you've admitted. Anyway I'm not going to have an argument about who's mad and who isn't. You're bored, i'm bored, gunna stop posting here.
Where do these quotes come from?
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