Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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Dachshund
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

Steve,

With regards a comparison between the violence of Christianity and Islam there are three basic points to consider:

(1) While it is true that the Old Testament contains violent verses, these verses refer to specific times and places in past historical circumstances, for example , God's command to Joshua to annihilate the Caananites, or, a few centuries later, the prophet Samuel's communicating God's will to slaughter the Amelekites for their sinfulness. It is IMPOSSIBLE, however, to apply these commands -monstrous as they are - to the modern world. They have never been understood by Christians to be open-ended or normative in the sense of establishing any kind of general standard for behaviour at all times. In contrast, the violent verses of the Koran (and there are at least 109 of them) are recorded in general, open-ended terms and are not restricted to any particular (past) historical situations.

(2) In Christianity, the Old Testament is viewed as the foundation upon which the New Testament was grounded,;this is why the New Testament contains the final revelation. Moreover, the New Testament both reflects and provides the ultimate source for Christian morality and theology and has been the sacred scripture that accompanied the spread of Christianity around the world. There are no verses in the New Testament which command believers to kill their enemies. It is by the WORD and not the SWORD that the Christian is exhorted to spread the faith in the NT. In contrast, the Koran is, for Muslims, the final revelation and final authority of Islamic faith. There is nothing that can contradict or supersede it, and throughout history it has, to this day, been interpreted literally by Muslims for well over a millenium in their violent treatment of unbelievers and enemies.

(3) For Christians, the ultimate example is Jesus, for Muslims it is Muhammed who is known as "the perfect man". The most "violent" thing that Jesus ever did was to display a fit of righteous anger in which he brandished a rope whip he had made, to drive a group of money-lenders and their animals out of the Temple for their disrespect. Muhammed, on the other hand, while he began his mission as a relatively peaceful preacher, soon became a soldier who fought aggressive, offensive wars and on one notorious occasion, personally beheaded h his Jewish captives.

In short, Islam, to this day, is absolutely not "a religion of peace".

Regards

John
Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

Dachshund wrote: In short, Islam, to this day, is absolutely not "a religion of peace".

Regards
John
Agree.

To ensure a watertight assertion "Islam is inherently evil" thus cannot be a religion of peace, one need to justify this with reference to the whole 6236 verses [100%] in the Quran, the words of Allah and the core of Islam.

Thus one must read the Quran extensively and have a reasonable understanding of the main theme and its sub-themes of the Quran and Islam. One must understand fully the significance of each significant word [Arabic], each statement, each chapter in relation to the whole of the Quran and its ethos.

Such an approach and understanding will ensure defensive Muslims will not have the opportunity give the lame excuses that those who critique Islam do not understand the subtle meanings in the Quran.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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LuckyR
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote:Lucky, if you're looking for problems with the practicality of banning people of a particular religious or philosophical persuasion from entering or being in a country, then I think it's obvious that you won't have to look far. I guess that's why when Trump got into office and asked "ok, guys, so how do I do live up to my promise to ban all Muslims until we find out what the hell is going in?" his advisers presumably said "sorry, Mr President, but that's not really possible. How about we pick some Muslim-majority countries and ban everybody coming from those?"

But I guess the idea of a place like this is that we don't have to worry to much about practicalities.

-- Updated Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:28 pm to add the following --

It would be interesting to try to ban people of other philosophical persuasions. If you wanted to ban solipsists, I wonder what you'd ask them at customs.

"Am I really asking you this question or am I just a series of sensory perceptions that you regard as representing an external physical world only for the sake of convenience?", "Er, the second one.". "Go home."
Yeah I get you. And forget about immigrants, what about tourists? Anyone can rent a truck.
"As usual... it depends."
Ecurb
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Ecurb »

Greta wrote:
Ecurb wrote:Religious bigotry has, of course, resulted in many atrocities throughout human history, and should be stamped out whenever it is seen.
Must such bigotry be stamped out? Yes, it would be desirable for people to be more accepting of others in every way, but the realpolitik is that prejudice is on the rise around the world. We move towards interesting times.
Ecurb wrote:However, since it appears to be thriving on this philosophy forum, the stamping out seems difficult to accomplish.
I disagree with most posts on the forum but I don't censor them. Should this approach change in your opinion?
I don't think that even bigoted posts should be "censored". However, if a community disapproves of or shuns those expressing bigoted opinions, bigots will probably express those opinions elsewhere. If prejudice is "on the rise", by the way, such is a very recent and perhaps temporary trend. Racial and religious prejudice are actually less prevalent now (at least in the West) than at any time in history. We have (thank goodness) moved away from slavery, Inquisitions, and Witch Burnings, although we have not eliminated prejudice.

One more point - it is, of course, impossible to regulate other people's thoughts (i.e. prejudices). However, discrimination (such as that advocated in this thread) can and should be regulated. "Bigotry" involves a spectrum (pun intended) including both prejudice and discrimination.
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OldMan
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by OldMan »

I think different nations have their own ways of being wild. And nations are more blind to their own wildness rather than other nations'. It could be because they have got used to it and do not feel it anymore. Or other reason could be because, as they have grown up in their own culture, they have learnt how to survive the wildness-es that are common in their society. Just like some virus that might exist in a body without hurting it (as that body has learnt how to resist against that virus) but it might make someone else whose body is not used to that virus, sick.
So, returning back to your question, I think if you are really interested in decreasing the migration rate of Muslims to your country, the most efficient way is asking help from Muslims who have already moved to your country and are not happy about their lives there. I personally know many Muslims who have migrated to some European countries and now after few years of living there they have understood that it is totally different from (and somehow in contrast to) what they were thinking. But as they have spent some years in that country, they have lost some time (and also the opportunities that they would have in their own country in case they had not migrated). So, they feel somehow being stuck in that new country. Also many of them think if they return back it will be seen as a defeat by their friends and relatives in their own country. Some of them even deceive themselves and start repeating some stupid stereotypes about the advantages of the country they have migrated to (I consider it as a mental reaction to a trauma). But among them I know some who are brave enough to see the reality and not tell lies to themselves. And these are the ones that I consider as your Trojan horse :) No one better than them can convince their countrymen who have not yet migrated but are planning to do it, not to do it. Because things that they have found in your country annoying up to such a level that they regret their decision of migration, will be found annoying to the same level by many of their countrymen as well. I think many migrations are done just based on some general information about the destination country.
Judaka
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Judaka »

I live in Australia where 8 people have died due to terrorism since 1996 to now, I can't get behind an argument of denying Muslim immigration for safety concerns. While I believe the threat of violence from a moderate Muslim is minute, I still don't appreciate the culture or religion and it seems that many who come from that region, really don't view their culture or religion as problems. Somehow, they want economic prosperity, stability and safety but celebrate their old culture and religion which forced them to leave their country to get it and they are perhaps even hostile or disgruntled towards Western culture.

If you want to come to Australia because you share the values Australia stands for, to help create a better future with the rest of us then let's see if we cannot work something out. However right now, people leaving the middle east from devastated regions, are leaving only because they have to. They aren't coming because they care about Australian values, they aren't ready to leave their old lives behind and many Western governments don't seem to have any plans on how to assimilate refugees/immigrants into the workforce and communities. Inviting such people will only cause problems in the long run.

Immigration should be treated seriously, multiculturalism doesn't work, need some form of assimilation and honestly, no culture is less compatible with ours than Islamic culture.
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Scribbler60
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Scribbler60 »

Spectrum wrote: November 25th, 2017, 12:01 amTo ensure a watertight assertion "Islam is inherently evil" thus cannot be a religion of peace, one need to justify this with reference to the whole 6236 verses [100%] in the Quran, the words of Allah and the core of Islam.

Thus one must read the Quran extensively and have a reasonable understanding of the main theme and its sub-themes of the Quran and Islam. One must understand fully the significance of each significant word [Arabic], each statement, each chapter in relation to the whole of the Quran and its ethos.

Such an approach and understanding will ensure defensive Muslims will not have the opportunity give the lame excuses that those who critique Islam do not understand the subtle meanings in the Quran.
Sadly, that doesn't work with many Islamists. In order, they say, to have a true understanding of their holy book, you must be a native Arabic speaker to get all the deepest meanings, as these meanings do not translate well.

That's their excuse, anyway.
Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

Scribbler60 wrote: December 23rd, 2017, 8:11 pm
Spectrum wrote: November 25th, 2017, 12:01 amTo ensure a watertight assertion "Islam is inherently evil" thus cannot be a religion of peace, one need to justify this with reference to the whole 6236 verses [100%] in the Quran, the words of Allah and the core of Islam.

Thus one must read the Quran extensively and have a reasonable understanding of the main theme and its sub-themes of the Quran and Islam. One must understand fully the significance of each significant word [Arabic], each statement, each chapter in relation to the whole of the Quran and its ethos.

Such an approach and understanding will ensure defensive Muslims will not have the opportunity give the lame excuses that those who critique Islam do not understand the subtle meanings in the Quran.
Sadly, that doesn't work with many Islamists. In order, they say, to have a true understanding of their holy book, you must be a native Arabic speaker to get all the deepest meanings, as these meanings do not translate well.

That's their excuse, anyway.
I mentioned above one need to take into consideration the Arabic words from the original Quran and not merely rely on translations but one do not necessary have to be a Native Arabic speaker. In any case there are no more Native Speakers of the Classical Quranic Arabic at present.

The point is the Quran involves all the main human variables.
If there is a topic of say, sex, we can learn all about sex from our present available databases. There is nothing special or mythical that the Quran can say about sex, evils, violence, moral that is not well covered in our more rational database.

So one of the task is to get the majority of Muslims to be educated with the most basic knowledge. It cannot be done in the immediate present but it is possible in the near future.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Hereandnow
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Hereandnow »

Why deny a ban on immigration? Because global segregationism is just too late, for one thing. In the US and elsewhere, we are already an international society. These minorities will swell and become voting blocks, and it won't be long at all before these issues will vanish into thin air. Trying to keep out Muslims and all other "dangerous immigrants" would be, at this point, like trying to keep out the Irish, or the Italians, both resented during their immigration periods; but now, who cares? The good part is that the Christian narrative will loose potency; religious competition will dialectically force religious growth and move things from an odious dogma (the real danger here) to an interfaith amalgam.... and then on to the one true view: philosophy (which is more a method than a view).

Why do you thing conservatives are so frantic? The writing is on the wall for them and their's simply nothing they can do about it, except beat their breasts and call foul. They have already lost. And so have you Dachshund.
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Scribbler60
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Scribbler60 »

Spectrum wrote: December 24th, 2017, 1:20 amI mentioned above one need to take into consideration the Arabic words from the original Quran and not merely rely on translations but one do not necessary have to be a Native Arabic speaker. In any case there are no more Native Speakers of the Classical Quranic Arabic at present.
I don't want to get too far off the page here, but the fact is that Koranic scholars insist that in order to properly understand the book and its message, you must be a native Arabic speaker.

From QuranicPath:
Had the Qur'an been in a foreign language, it would not be possible for the speakers of the language who received it or the messenger, to take its message to the world. In other words, although the Quranic message is for the world, this verse is more specifically addressed to those who understood the language (..."so that you may understand")...emphasising on appreciating what would have happened had it been in a language other than their tongue. This is proved in the following verses:

"So We have revealed an Arabic Quran to you, in order that you may warn the capital city and all who live nearby..." (Qur'an 42:7)

"We have made the Qur'an easy in your language so that they may take heed it." (Qur'an 44:58)

"If We had made it a foreign Quran, they would have said, ‘If only its verses were clear! What? Foreign speech to an Arab?’ Say, ‘It is guidance and healing for those who have faith, but the ears of the disbelievers are heavy, they are blind to it, it is as if they are being called from a distant place.’ (Qur'an 41:44)

So when Allah says:

"We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an so you people may understand / reason" (Qur'an 12:2)

We can clearly see it is in reference to the above verses - to the blessing that Allah revealed clear wisdom and guidance in a language they can understand and be able to reason over (Arabic).
In short, if you're not born Arabic, you have no chance of properly interpreting the Koran.

Note that I'm not defending this view; simply pointing out that, like pretty much every other religion, there's a basis for exclusion to maintain the purity of the "chosen ones." It's a way of invoking the No True Scotsman fallacy on a massive scale.
Dachshund
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

Hereandnow wrote: December 24th, 2017, 10:17 am Why deny a ban on immigration? Because global segregationism is just too late, for one thing. In the US and elsewhere, we are already an international society. These minorities will swell and become voting blocks, and it won't be long at all before these issues will vanish into thin air. Trying to keep out Muslims and all other "dangerous immigrants" would be, at this point, like trying to keep out the Irish, or the Italians, both resented during their immigration periods; but now, who cares? The good part is that the Christian narrative will loose potency; religious competition will dialectically force religious growth and move things from an odious dogma (the real danger here) to an interfaith amalgam.... and then on to the one true view: philosophy (which is more a method than a view).

Why do you thing conservatives are so frantic? The writing is on the wall for them and their's simply nothing they can do about it, except beat their breasts and call foul. They have already lost. And so have you Dachshund.

That's funny, I thought that in the US you guys are currently in the process building a great big wall to keep Mexicans out of your country ? Strange as well, that Trump repeatedly and emphatically promised to ban Muslim immigration into the States during the 2016 election campaign and won the Presidential race ? Curious too, that after 400 years, black Africans have never managed to smoothly assimilate themselves into the dominant - and objectively superior - culture of the majority, White Anglo-Saxon protestant population of America?

Regards

Dachshund
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Hereandnow
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Hereandnow »

Like I said, it's already done. Keep in mind T has an approval rate at about 34% and he technically lost the race, notwithstanding the dreadful lack of political savvy on the opposition's side. But this is beside the point. In 30 years, whites in the US will not be a majority.

That farm down the street used to belong to the Smiths. Had for decades and decades. Now it's the Krishnamurti's.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Sy Borg »

Australia is rapidly becoming Chinese. If you think westerners don't like Muslims, note the Chinese government's attitude towards Islam. So, Daschshund, Aussies have no need to worry about Muslims, rather we old Caucasians appear to be headed towards becoming second class citizens in our own country.

It's the north who bears the brunt of what will be the greatest exodus the human world has seen as Middle Eastern countries are increasingly rendered uninhabitable by climate change and war - not just its danger and damage to crops, water supplies and other infrastructure, but the extreme toxic pollution it creates. I suspect that walls will built across parts of Europe and Russia (and its -stan satellites) before a barrier is built between the US and Mexico.
Dachshund
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

Hereandnow wrote: December 24th, 2017, 3:16 pm Like I said, it's already done. Keep in mind T has an approval rate at about 34% and he technically lost the race, notwithstanding the dreadful lack of political savvy on the opposition's side. But this is beside the point. In 30 years, whites in the US will not be a majority.

That farm down the street used to belong to the Smiths. Had for decades and decades. Now it's the Krishnamurti's.
It is, I would say to you, a demonstrable fact that everything - all of the remarkable achievements America has ever chalked up to date (since its Declaration of Independence was proclaimed in 1776); all of the progress it succeeded in making since then across the broad spectrum of human endeavours ; the remarkable progress which served to make it (still) such a great nation, were firmly grounded in the core values of the culture and religion of its founding fathers- the majority of whom were , as Thomas Jefferson himself noted: white, Anglo-Saxon protestant males.

Do you sincerely deny this ?

Dachshund
Judaka
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Judaka »

Australia is rapidly becoming Chinese. If you think westerners don't like Muslims, note the Chinese government's attitude towards Islam. So, Daschshund, Aussies have no need to worry about Muslims, rather we old Caucasians appear to be headed towards becoming second class citizens in our own country.
Is this xenophobic propaganda at work or do you actually have some statistics to back this up? The demographics of Australia show that only just recently did Chinese immigrants overtake British and Kiwis, Australia is still dominantly caucasian and will be for a long time to come.
the remarkable progress which served to make it (still) such a great nation, were firmly grounded in the core values of the culture and religion of its founding fathers- the majority of whom were , as Thomas Jefferson himself noted: white, Anglo-Saxon protestant males.
The culture and religion of America at its inception is extinct, you are talking about extremely traditional, religious folk who lived in hard times and comparing them to the baseball watching, celebrity obsessed America of today and calling it the same thing, it is misleading. The success of early America comes from them being one of the largest industrial powers using technology and other mediums of progress from Europe, early America really had nothing except anglo-saxon protestant males in a position to achieve anything. Demographics of early America meant most citizens of the country were anglo-saxon protestants to begin with, the sexist culture at the time stigmatized the pursuit of education and business success by women and other races at the time had to deal with racism or slavery.

Since then, and you are probably going to like this since you appear to follow an ideology that hates Jews, we have seen Jewish-American scientists and entrepreneurs having great success in America. I think ultimately it is unsurprising that a nation which has historically oppressed ethnic and religious minorities doesn't have a history of ethnic and religious minorities contributing to the great achievements of America.

There is a long and interesting history surrounding why the West has been so successful, the vast empires of the West existed before America became a superpower. I am not one of those people who feels culture has nothing to do with the success of the West, we are the only ones who sought science and knowledge in the way that we did. However a lot of people want to take this vast and complicated history and reduce it for the purpose of making a political message, into a neat little anecdote which promotes one's ideologies. There are intelligent arguments to be made against immigration but this wasn't one of them.
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