Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
I don't believe that any animal, human or other, is born evil. Doesn't make sense, as evil is an adjective not a noun. Since 'evil' is not a noun there can be no gene for evil. Since there is no gene for evil there can be no genetic basis for evil.
I also disagree as to why Islam is more of a social nuisance than other religions. I also disagree with your contention that Islam lacks the basic moral tenet, the Golden Rule is alive and well in Islam as in all Axial Age religions plus Humanism and Socialism. I think that Christianity has the advantage as moral leader because it's based upon a life, whereas Islam's Holy Prophet is not God but an interpreter of God's Book of rules.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
You missed my point stated earlier;Spectrum wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 1:33 amThe holy texts of the three Abrahamic religions contains loads of evil element, the OT being the worst but these evil elements has different potential consensus due to the way they are presented and intended.Belindi wrote: ↑February 8th, 2018, 5:39 am I keep telling, Spectrum, I don't like Islam either. And this is because of its adherence to a written Book which happens to contain a lot of stuff which most of us here in the developed world consider to be bad stuff, evil stuff. The Bible is similar though less forthright than the Koran.I dislike Christianity and Judaism too for the same reason I dislike Islam. Those bloody Books!
- 1. The OT of the Jews has loads of evil and violent elements, but the focus of the Jews is very internal and confine to unity of the Jews as the chosen people.
2. The NT of Christianity has an overriding pacifist maxim, love your enemies plus love your neighbors, give the other cheeks, love this love that, etc. If Christians are ever violent, it has nothing to do with Christianity nor Christ per se rather it is because they [SOME] as humans are evil.
3. Islam is very terrible because all the evil and violent elements in the Q-uran are directed at non-believers as target to be killed and violently treated and such acts are deemed as divine duties for the Muslims. This is why the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims are so evident.Re those statistics, I have never focused the blame on the SOME Muslims who were unfortunately born with an active tendency and triggered by the evil elements in the Q-uran to commit evil acts.You statistics are one-sided. Most Muslims happen to be as ordinary as most Christians and most Jews. Just trying to live their lives and raise their kids without too much hardship. It is indeed remarkable that humans for the most part manage to be quite nice despite nasty religions.
The root cause of the statistics is the evil laden ideology.
It is the same with violence in the media, e.g. blaming the movies, books, computer games, etc. as the culprit that influences vulnerable children and adults to commit terrible evil acts.
So, NO, NO, NO .. I am not blaming the unfortunate Muslims who are actually victims of Islam the religion.
Note my point above there are very significant differences between the different Abrahamic religions in promoting evil acts and violence.I think that you have a good point about preventing immigration of people who are too much infected by religious fanaticism. This applies to all religionists not just Muslims. America and Britain have laws which should over- rule religiously inspired illegalities. I hear that some faith schools in the UK are encouraging bad beliefs about creationism , and sexism. I did not actually read that those are Islamic schools, alThough I'd not be surprised to learn that this is so. I oppose all faith schools whatever unreasoning beliefs they may espouse implicitly or explicitly.
Islam is particularly dangerous because it is inherently toxic and malignantly evil where it will definitely and certainly inspire SOME Muslims [a % exist by default] who are evil prone to commit terrible evils.
Because we have problems identifying who is likely to commit evil and violence until it is too late, it would be wiser to prevent mass immigration of Muslims into any non-Muslim country.
The other two Abrahamic religions has bad beliefs, e.g. creationism and others but violent evil acts [so evident and threatening to humanity] is most critical thus warrant immediate attention.
I am sure that you are mistaken that religious fanaticism is genetic!
- 1. All humans has the potential to commit evil and 20% [conservatively] are born with an active evil tendency - the evil prone.
2. Islam is an immutable ideology and is inherentlty toxic and malignant with tons of evil laden elements.
Only point one common to all humans is genetic.
Religious fanaticism not common to all religions nor humans is not genetic per se.
[/quote]
I will stipulate that your statements are correct, though religious scholars may be able to prove you wrong. No matter.
The problem with this line of argument is essentially the same as the Blacks do worse on standardized tests as a group, so should occupy fewer spots in graduate programs etc arguments. Both on the: overestimation of the INTER group difference and the under-appreciation of the INTRA group spread as well as the inability of these small (yet measurable) differences to predict outcomes. This latter issue is almost certainly because such oversimplifications ignore the numerous other variables that go into final outcomes by over reliance on a single (politically expedient) variable that serves other (usually political) purposes.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
Religious scholars by default will be compel by confirmation bias to disagree.LuckyR wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 12:58 pmI will stipulate that your statements are correct, though religious scholars may be able to prove you wrong. No matter.Spectrum wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 1:33 am You missed my point stated earlier;
- 1. All humans has the potential to commit evil and 20% [conservatively] are born with an active evil tendency - the evil prone.
2. Islam is an immutable ideology and is inherentlty toxic and malignant with tons of evil laden elements.
Only point 1 [which] common to all humans is genetic.
Religious fanaticism not common to all religions nor humans [and] is not genetic per se.
What I had proposed is based on evidence from the religious texts, critical thinking and rationality.
Your comparison is off because Islam-Muslim_ness is not a race.The problem with this line of argument is essentially the same as the Blacks do worse on standardized tests as a group, so should occupy fewer spots in graduate programs etc arguments. Both on the: overestimation of the INTER group difference and the under-appreciation of the INTRA group spread as well as the inability of these small (yet measurable) differences to predict outcomes. This latter issue is almost certainly because such oversimplifications ignore the numerous other variables that go into final outcomes by over reliance on a single (politically expedient) variable that serves other (usually political) purposes.
From my points above,
- 1. 20% of ALL humans are born with an active evil tendency - the evil prone.
2. If these evil prone people are exposed to ANY evil elements, they will be triggered to commit evil.
violence.
3. Islam [Q-uran as core] contains loads of evil elements.
4. Therefore Islam will trigger the evil prone Muslims to commit evil acts and violence.
The point is at present the majority cannot see the logic above.
At present, Islam is deceptively touted as a religion [defaulted as peaceful] the majority are blinded to understand it is Islam [inherently toxic] itself that is the root cause of evil and violence committed by SOME Muslims.
Given the above facts, as with violent materials in the media, humanity should take steps of censor or ban Islam then there will be no Islam-related evil acts and violence.
Given as long as there are Muslims, it is almost certain there will be Islamic-related evil and violence,
re this OP, a smart country that prevent mass immigration of Muslims will be certain there will no expected Islamic inspired evil acts and violence.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
1. No. All men are born with an " evil tendency" . I am rather with St Augustine on this that the baby human is an empty vessel and needs filling up with good stuff or else he may willy- nilly get filled up with bad stuff.1. 20% of ALL humans are born with an active evil tendency - the evil prone.
2. If these evil prone people are exposed to ANY evil elements, they will be triggered to commit evil.
violence.
3. Islam [Q-uran as core] contains loads of evil elements.
4. Therefore Islam will trigger the evil prone Muslims to commit evil acts and violence.
2. Defences against evil include reason and inborn human or mammalian kindness. No human is born lacking human or mammalian kindness although young children's understanding of how to employ this innate understanding has to be fostered.
3. The holy Book of Islam does indeed contain a lot of "evil elements". Maybe at the time and place of the Holy Prophet all of the Koran was considered to be the height of morality.
4.I fear that you are correct in this. However all holy books can exert immoral influence. The Koran's explicitness is a virtue, compared with the discursive OT as with the Koran we know exactly what we are dealing with. However just as Christians cherry pick the OT so Muslims can and do cherry pick the Koran as we know from the fact that the huge majority of Muslims are not jihadis .
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
I have shorten point 1.Belindi wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 5:08 am Spectrum wrote:
1. No. All men are born with an " evil tendency" . I am rather with St Augustine on this that the baby human is an empty vessel and needs filling up with good stuff or else he may willy- nilly get filled up with bad stuff.1. 20% of ALL humans are born with an active evil tendency - the evil prone.
2. If these evil prone people are exposed to ANY evil elements, they will be triggered to commit evil.
violence.
3. Islam [Q-uran as core] contains loads of evil elements.
4. Therefore Islam will trigger the evil prone Muslims to commit evil acts and violence.
It should be "ALL humans are born with a potential to commit evil acts, and 20% [conservative est.] [all -not men*] are born with an active evil tendency."
* It is possible the majority are men but it is not 100% men.
Nah, the popular one is Locke and his tabula rasa, blank slate theory which is outdated.
All humans has inherent DNA-based and innate instincts and other impulses to kill, injure and other violent acts. Note the following;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_ra ... urobiology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_ra ... pre-wiring
There are many reports of very young toddlers who display instinctive 'violent' behaviors, e.g.
- 1 1/2 year old hitting newborn:
https://community.babycenter.com/post/a ... ng_newborn
11-Year-Old Allegedly Kills Baby Brother - out of Jealousy,
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/ ... 95713.html
DNA wise all humans are also born with an innate moral compass to do good. But a certain percentage do not have an active moral compass but rather born with an active evil tendency.2. Defences against evil include reason and inborn human or mammalian kindness. No human is born lacking human or mammalian kindness although young children's understanding of how to employ this innate understanding has to be fostered.
This is my concern with point 2, i.e.
If these evil prone people are exposed to ANY evil elements, they will be triggered to commit evil.
The evil laden elements in the Q-uran is too extreme to be considered for relative morality.3. The holy Book of Islam does indeed contain a lot of "evil elements". Maybe at the time and place of the Holy Prophet all of the Koran was considered to be the height of morality.
As stated 20% of all humans are born with an active evil tendency.
The Q-uran was likely to be authored by one person or group of people who were highly evil prone and their impulses of evil are imbued into what they wrote. This is so evident when the Q-uran is read objectively.
The OT has a greater load of evil elements and is of concern but its theme of evil is somehow not directed at non-believers - this is proven by actual evidence.4.I fear that you are correct in this. However all holy books can exert immoral influence. The Koran's explicitness is a virtue, compared with the discursive OT as with the Koran we know exactly what we are dealing with. However just as Christians cherry pick the OT so Muslims can and do cherry pick the Koran as we know from the fact that the huge majority of Muslims are not jihadis .
There is not much evil acts and violence [degrees and quantum] from the Jews in comparison to the Muslims.
It is only the majority who are moderate Muslims who cherry pick the few good verses and because they are humane, they naturally side step the evil laden verses.
However it is the true Muslims [jihadists and extremists] who strive to follow 100% of the Q-uran which is net-evil over good, thus the evidence of real terrible evils and violence.
The jihadists recognized it is their divine duty to carry out all that is commanded by their God so as to gain greater assurance to have eternal life in Paradise and avoid hell.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
All true Scotsmen, Spectrum!However it is the true Muslims [jihadists and extremists]
BTW the OT explains about Jahweh needs for the monotheists to kill the worshippers of the older gods of place and fertility. And they do it too !
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
Note the point below is not based on an opinion nor belief.
The use of 'true' here is very objective.Spectrum wrote:However it is the true Muslims [jihadists and extremists] who strive to follow 100% of the Q-uran which is net-evil over good, thus the evidence of real terrible evils and violence.
It is a fact all Muslims must obey Allah's commands in the Quran 100% in principle, if not, to the best of their ability, to be true Muslims so as to qualify for whatever is promised by Allah.
You are deflecting.BTW the OT explains about Jahweh needs for the monotheists to kill the worshippers of the older gods of place and fertility. And they do it too !
I have been pointing out, ALL evils [secular and religious] must be addressed accordingly but this OP is related to Islam.
In any case,
for the Christians the OT is overridden by the NT.
There are evil elements in the NT but they are not an immediate critical threat to humanity, but nevertheless they must be addressed accordingly.
I agree the OT is worse than the Quran in terms of evil laden elements.
The focus of the OT is on self-preservation of the Jews than trying to convert everybody else to Judaism. This is why there are very less evil acts from the Jews in comparison to Islam. Nevertheless we need to address whatever evil acts from the Jews, but the quantum of evil acts is very much lesser and thus not a critical threat to humanity.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
You flatter yourself. What you call facts are merely one person's opinion. Naturally you are entitled to have and try to advance it (as you are).Spectrum wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 10:50 pmReligious scholars by default will be compel by confirmation bias to disagree.
What I had proposed is based on evidence from the religious texts, critical thinking and rationality.
Your comparison is off because Islam-Muslim_ness is not a race.The problem with this line of argument is essentially the same as the Blacks do worse on standardized tests as a group, so should occupy fewer spots in graduate programs etc arguments. Both on the: overestimation of the INTER group difference and the under-appreciation of the INTRA group spread as well as the inability of these small (yet measurable) differences to predict outcomes. This latter issue is almost certainly because such oversimplifications ignore the numerous other variables that go into final outcomes by over reliance on a single (politically expedient) variable that serves other (usually political) purposes.
From my points above,In 3 above, if it is extreme evil acts and violence in movies, that will trigger the vulnerable evil prone to commit violence. This is proven by research and this is why evil and violent elements in movies are censored or banned.
- 1. 20% of ALL humans are born with an active evil tendency - the evil prone.
2. If these evil prone people are exposed to ANY evil elements, they will be triggered to commit evil.
violence.
3. Islam [Q-uran as core] contains loads of evil elements.
4. Therefore Islam will trigger the evil prone Muslims to commit evil acts and violence.
The point is at present the majority cannot see the logic above.
At present, Islam is deceptively touted as a religion [defaulted as peaceful] the majority are blinded to understand it is Islam [inherently toxic] itself that is the root cause of evil and violence committed by SOME Muslims.
Given the above facts, as with violent materials in the media, humanity should take steps of censor or ban Islam then there will be no Islam-related evil acts and violence.
Given as long as there are Muslims, it is almost certain there will be Islamic-related evil and violence,
re this OP, a smart country that prevent mass immigration of Muslims will be certain there will no expected Islamic inspired evil acts and violence.
Again, your analysis is long on theory and short on predictive power.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
I've tried to point that out to Spectrum before. You'd do better with him if you presented counter arguments to his proposed idea. There are numerous factors that could be said to compliment the current social upheaval in the Middle East. I've pointed them out before. It is a very entangled problem of which religion is certainly wrapped up in.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
But the majority do as a matter of fact interpret and cherry pick. This majority is well aware of the evils of Islamic fundamentalism.The use of 'true' here is very objective.
It is a fact all Muslims must obey Allah's commands in the Quran 100% in principle, if not, to the best of their ability, to be true Muslims so as to qualify for whatever is promised by Allah.
Spectrum wrote:
I know a couple of Christian fundamentalists who focus on The Bible is written by God and is inerrant in its wisdom and prophecies. My 'focus' tends more to what I was taught at school that the OT is a lot about how the event of Jesus Christ was foretold by Judaism.I have since seen other focuses such as the social anthropological source which is the Book of Ruth, and the poetry of especially the King James version.In short, The Bible is open to interpretation in free societies. Unfortunately Islamic societies tend not to be free. There is a difference between Islam and Islamism and I ask you don't you see the difference ?In any case,
for the Christians the OT is overridden by the NT.
There are evil elements in the NT but they are not an immediate critical threat to humanity, but nevertheless they must be addressed accordingly.
I agree the OT is worse than the Quran in terms of evil laden elements.
The focus of the OT is on self-preservation of the Jews than trying to convert everybody else to Judaism. This is why there are very less evil acts from the Jews in comparison to Islam. Nevertheless we need to address whatever evil acts from the Jews, but the quantum of evil acts is very much lesser and thus not a critical threat to humanity.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
Note I stated this;
From my points above,
- 1. 20% of ALL humans are born with an active evil tendency - the evil prone.
(it is evident a % of people commit evil acts)
2. If these evil prone people are exposed to ANY evil elements, they will be triggered to commit evil and violence.
(Studies have shown vulnerable people exposed to violent elements becomes violent)
3. Islam [Q-uran as core] contains loads of evil elements.
(e.g. http://janmorganmedia.com/2014/05/proof ... ght-koran/)
4. Therefore Islam will trigger the evil prone Muslims to commit evil acts and violence.
I agree I have not provided the necessary extensive details to what I believed [not opinions] but the above are facts. Note the clues I listed below the points.
Give me an idea why they cannot be facts.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
Yes, the majority do interpret and cherry pick to navigate from the evil elements.Belindi wrote: ↑February 11th, 2018, 6:01 am Spectrum wrote:
But the majority do as a matter of fact interpret and cherry pick. This majority is well aware of the evils of Islamic fundamentalism.The use of 'true' here is very objective.
It is a fact all Muslims must obey Allah's commands in the Quran 100% in principle, if not, to the best of their ability, to be true Muslims so as to qualify for whatever is promised by Allah.
The reality with Islam is this;
- 1. There are 1.5 billion Muslims.
2. A majority of 80% is 1.2 billion
3. A minority of 20% is 300 million!
The critical point is there is no central authority in Islam as such who on Earth can decide the minority are wrong? Only Allah can but the minority believe they are carrying out Allah's command as a divine duty.
Therefore there is no way any one on Earth can stop the minority from practicing what they belief and truly is the true Islam.
Thus the final resultant is we have potential pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims who are 'compelled' to carry out Allah's command [including the evil acts] as in the Quran.
The resultant evil and violence from this minority is so evident as below and from other sources;
Note this;Spectrum wrote:I know a couple of Christian fundamentalists who focus on The Bible is written by God and is inerrant in its wisdom and prophecies. My 'focus' tends more to what I was taught at school that the OT is a lot about how the event of Jesus Christ was foretold by Judaism.I have since seen other focuses such as the social anthropological source which is the Book of Ruth, and the poetry of especially the King James version.In short, The Bible is open to interpretation in free societies. Unfortunately Islamic societies tend not to be free.In any case,
for the Christians the OT is overridden by the NT.
There are evil elements in the NT but they are not an immediate critical threat to humanity, but nevertheless they must be addressed accordingly.
I agree the OT is worse than the Quran in terms of evil laden elements.
The focus of the OT is on self-preservation of the Jews than trying to convert everybody else to Judaism. This is why there are very less evil acts from the Jews in comparison to Islam. Nevertheless we need to address whatever evil acts from the Jews, but the quantum of evil acts is very much lesser and thus not a critical threat to humanity.
There is a difference between Islam and Islamism and I ask you don't you see the difference?
There are talks differentiation Islam and Islamism, but essentially there is no such thing, Islam is Islam which has its inherent evil elements that inspire SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence.Speaking at Kanal D TV”s Arena program, PM Erdogan commented on the term “moderate Islam”, often used in the West to describe AKP and said,
“˜These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion.
There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it.”
Source: Milliyet, Turkey, August 21, 2007
Actually what moderate Muslims tout as 'Islamism' by extremist is really the truer Islam.
What the moderates [lay-Muslims] majority claimed to practice as 'Islam' is actually diluted and compromised Islam to blend with normal human values.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
Anyway, the tenor of the essay's argument is that all religions with clout are political in the sense that each religion presents the moral basis for its country's laws. My paraphrase.
I accept.
https://lawyerssecularsociety.wordpress ... -islamism/
There is a difference in incidences of violent religious behaviour (see the experiences of Hirsi Ali) between Muslims generally speaking, and other religionists generally speaking. The behaviour of Buddhists in Myanmar tends to condemn "other religionists" but maybe that's exceptional for Buddhists. So I withdraw my disagreement with Spectrum concerning 'islamism', and concede to Spectrum's argument against the usage and accusation 'islamism'.
My point does however stand that Islam never had a reformation , unlike Christianity and Judaism which did reform and modernise.There are historical reasons for this not least of which is the occupation of Islamic lands by Christians to the effect that Muslims were relegated to second class peoples. Relegated people need to get some prestige before they can plan to adapt and change, is a sound psychological theory.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
Noted your other points.Belindi wrote: ↑February 12th, 2018, 4:50 am ..
My point does however stand that Islam never had a reformation , unlike Christianity and Judaism which did reform and modernise.There are historical reasons for this not least of which is the occupation of Islamic lands by Christians to the effect that Muslims were relegated to second class peoples. Relegated people need to get some prestige before they can plan to adapt and change, is a sound psychological theory.
Islam never had a reformation because Islam cannot be reformed.
What is delivered by Allah via his messenger is commanded as perfect and immutable.
- 5:3 ... This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. ...
Thus whatever acts [even if it turned out to be evil and violent for non-Muslims] Muslims carried as a divine duty, it is implied these Muslims has correctly followed the commands of Allah in the Quran as a divine duty.
For example, when SOME Muslims obey the following command from Allah and kill non-believers, moderate Muslims will give sorts of explanations, excuses of contexts, etc.
- 9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
Now who in the world can decide and insist they are wrong. Point is no humans can judge on behalf of Allah and the fact is Allah cannot appear on Earth to make the judgment, but only on Judgment Day [in reality no such thing] which is too late as the evil acts has already been committed.
Thus as long as verse 9:29 and the other loads of evil laden verses remain in the Quran as they are, and since they are immutable, humanity will have to face the permanent threat of evils and violence from those [SOME] evil prone Muslims.
This is why we must take Islam as it is and criticize it accordingly to effect change to prevent Islamic-based evils, terrors and violence.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration
My Christian fundamentalist friends would say the same about Christianity that it cannot be reformed. Christian fundies have this in common with Islamic fundies: they are unable to place the holy texts within history.Islam never had a reformation because Islam cannot be reformed.
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