Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

IEDConsultancy wrote: June 10th, 2018, 6:24 am
The truth of the matter is that anyone that can be considered a "good person" who identifies as Muslim, upon learning the truth about Islam would find no issue in distancing themselves from the ideology or at the very least begin referring to themselves as a "moderate" for clarification.

The rest of my opinions can be found here [deleted advertisement].

Thanks for your time.
Good points. I hope you will post more on the 'truth' of Islam.

I believe we should not conflate Islam [a major part is an evil and malignant religion] with Muslims who are humans with basic dignity.
Note this thread I raised;
Do Not Bash Muslims!
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15391&p=307280&hili ... im#p307280

However we have to acknowledge the following reality;
  • 1. DNA wise ALL human has the potential for evil and violence and a percentile are unfortunately are born with an active propensity for evils and violence.
    2. The Quran - Core of Islam has loads of evil laden elements that inspire Muslims to commit evils and violence.
Now if 20% of Muslims are evil prone, then there are 300 million [20% of 1.5 billion] who are very willing to carry out the commands of Allah to commit evils and violence on non-believers. The evidence is so glaring, i.e. the fatal incidents;

Image

plus a whole loads of non-fatal evils and violence around the world.

In addition, statistics has show Muslims are very obedient [as part of the covenant] to the words of Allah to be assured of a place in paradise.
Note the Pew Research where on average 50% and up to 81% [1.2 billion :shock: ] believe Sharia Laws [from Hadiths] filled with commands from God to commit violence and evil [to them it is a divine duty] on non-Muslims, are the revealed words of God.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the- ... ut-sharia/

With or without Islam, there will be people who do good and do evil but Islam [heavily loaded with evil elements] is one critical cause that inspire evil prone Muslims [potential of 300 million] to commit terrible evils and violence in the name of the religion.

Therefore the solution [not now but in the longer term] to the above is to do something about the proximate cause, i.e. Islam [Quran, Hadith and Sira] and preferable get rid of such so claimed immutable texts directly revealed from an illusory God.

nb: Before anyone jumps .. I believe evils and violence from ALL sources must be addressed but this OP is related to Islam and Muslims only.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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IEDConsultancy
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by IEDConsultancy »

Belindi wrote: June 10th, 2018, 9:56 am IEDConsultancy, your post does not consider the possibility that sane individuals' world views might evolve. Your view of Muslims both moderate and fanatical is that they are as plagued by rigidity of mind as if they were demented. Once moderate Muslims are planted into a liberal society many can and do put away their backwardness and become educated. This may take generations as Muslims often aren't swift to integrate.

I share your dislike of islamism and islamic regimes. However isolationism isn't an effective way to curb islamism.
If you study the history of Islam, you will find that time and time again Muslims have become "moderate" with time and ventured from the path of orthodox Islamic practices. It is an inevitable aspect of human nature, we are inherently lazy and being a devout practitioner is far from the path of least resistance.

However, time and time again orthodoxy has been restored thanks primarily to the Hadith and Sunnah, which where implemented exactly for this reason. So long as the Hadith and Sunnah are paired with the Qur'an, there can be no re-translations and no reformations.
A modern scholar, who lives in a western society and may be influenced at least in part by non-Muslim Judeo-Christian perspectives of morality and civility cannot argue that a scholar who was a mere 200 years removed from the prophet, was not influenced by the views of non-Muslims and whom actually resided within the heart of the Caliphate/Ottoman empire did not understand the correct context in which a Qur'anic verse was to be interpreted and this is exactly what the Hadith and Sunnah reflect.

Modernity says that child marriage, female genital mutilation, domestic violence, bigotry and murdering your enemies (non-Muslims) are wrong, this was not the case in the 1,400's and there are Hadith's and Sunnah a plenty to back this up and ensure that context is not lost to the evolution of cultural/societal standards.

It is also important to note that we are not dealing with the rational mind here, you only need to watch debates between intellectuals and radicals or street riots to see that a large number of these people are blinded by their faith, which is encouraged by the unity found within their communities and these people congregate together naturally.

For every "moderate" that leaves the fold and joins liberal society, fanatical Muslims pull many more lost members of the liberal society into the fold of Islamic fanaticism. Western society is in many cases itself a broken system and as such Islam offers those who are unhappy with western society the false hope of a better future through the implementation of Shari'a (because they don't know the realities of what it is like to live in an Islamic state, only the myths propagated by their new found friends).

As for your comment "isolationism isn't an effective way to curb islamism" you fail to see that Muslims isolate themselves within liberal societies of their own free will in order to maintain orthodoxy and curb contamination of thought, hence the fact of the matter is, we can isolate them to a Muslim country where they server no threat to us or we can allow them into our countries, grant them a foot hold within our countries, allow the to segregate themselves from our societies, allow them to increase their numbers by preying upon those who are fed up with the flaws present in the western system of governance and ultimately expand their influence within our countries. This is the harsh reality!
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

LuckyR wrote: June 10th, 2018, 12:53 am Golly, what’s your solution for all the non-harmless (by your reckoning) Muslims who are... ALREADY HERE!!!!! I am just freaking out thinking of the risk. Just so you know that’s about 3.4 million and will be the second largest religion in the US around 2040.
Muslims represent only a small fraction of the total population of the US, and hile they remain a small minority, they have no chance of securing any kind of genuine political power in America. If ever, (God forbid !) in the hypothetical future, US immigration policy was, however, changed in a way that made it easier, generally speaking, for Muslims to immigrate to the US on a permanent basis, as the total number of Muslims in the US increased there would, of course, be a corresponding ( and proportionate) increase in their overall political strength, and this is when you would start to see real trouble begin in terms of domestic social strife/ civil unrest. For instance, the frequency of violent terrorist attacks against non-muslim targets in the US, would escalate and communities would in consequence,become ever more bitterly divided and unstable as more and more insular Muslim enclaves established themselves in American towns and cities.

You realise, BTW, that if ever the day should come when the population of the USA was: 51% Muslim and 49% non-Muslim, then you and and family would have only have one option, i.e. covert to Islam or die. It would good-bye "Land of the Free", good-bye to democracy, and good-bye to all of your cherished Human Rights, LuckyR. How would YOU ( a proponent of classic, "bleeding heart" philosophical liberalism) like that ? You could, of course organise protests against the new theocratic order, but if you did you (and your rebellious collaborators) would either be arrested and executed without trial or imprisoned and tortured indefinitely (if you were lucky).

As for those Muslim immigrants who are currently residing in the US; because they are, in fact, implacably hostile to all of America's fundamental, core values, namely: democracy; respect for equal, universal Human Rights as conceptualised and enshrined in the UNUDHR, respect for the fundamental principle of the "rule of law" (as this notion is currently defined and understood in America); respect for the Constitutional First Amendment Rights of their fellow (non-muslim) citizens; any feeling of moral obligation to demonstrate a (sincere) mutual respect for their fellow (non-Muslim) Americans, and so on. There is, in short, every good reason to regard them as holding beliefs and attitudes that are wholly inappropriate and incompatible with the fundamental values and civilised standards of conduct and discourse that currently obtain in mainstream American society. Right?

In short, because they are contemptuous of basic American values, they are necessarily lacking the kind of "good character" that any politician would surely agree MUST be possed in order justify their ongoing permission to remain as permanent residents in American socity. As the British government's Home Office would put it, they are manifestly "undesirable" ( inherently and irremediably antisocial) elements and ought be deported to their country of origin immediately.
LuckyR wrote: June 10th, 2018, 12:53 am BTW by your logic all terrorists have to do to slip by your “blockade” is fake converting to Christianity, so much for the Wall...
Yes, Muslim are officially permitted ,by virtue of certain Islamic doctrines, such as ("Kitman and Taqiya") to lie and dissimulate -; to practice frank trickery, deception and duplicity - in any circumstance where it is deemed necessary in order to serve the greater purpose of the Islamic cause, which is ultimately always, to put it bluntly, jihad. The Muslim pilots, for ex, who brought down the Twin Towers on 9/11 ,lied and deceived their way through US airport security checks before flying off to murder thousands of innocent US citizens on that dreadful day. So, I agree with you that if a ban on Muslim immigration were implemented in the US, the relevant authorities would face a formidable administrative challenge wrt to identifying who, among all of those applying to immigrate into the US, was, or was not, a bone fide Muslim ( i.e. an Islamist). The real Muslims would simply lie, of course, if the US immigration process demanded applicants to formally declare their religion.
LuckyR wrote: June 10th, 2018, 12:53 am As to your convenient description of the CATO institute, “liberal” is currently a term that has little to no meaning online
I agree. The term" Liberal" has been bandied about so often and in so many different contexts, it has lost any precise singular meaning. So let me clarify how I have interpreted the term. When I describe the CATO institute as a" Liberal" think -tank. I am using the term "Liberal" in the sense that , say, P.J. O'Rourke, the US humorist used it. I am using him as an example because I am pretty sure you are familiar with PJ's general schtick (?) For P.J., a "Liberal" in America is a person who supports the operation a free market ( laissez-faire) capitalist economy; one that is ideally supervised by a "small", minimally-interventionist, government. Thus, most American Republicans are "Liberals" in the sense I have just defined the term. The CATO institute is a (moderately, but unmistakably) right - of -centre, "Liberalist" organization in that it has a robust faith in the inherent wisdom and self-regulating prudency of the laissez-faire and consequently favours the principle of small government. Personally, I think the term "neo-liberal" is probably a better descriptor in 2018 for the kind of economic rationalist/market fundamentalist political policies that CATO supports. In any case, I do not find their view that America should adopt the policy of loosening its current border controls in order to encourage more ( effectively unregulated !) foreign immigration into the US, to be very prudent one. Their theory is that this would ultimately strengthen the American economy ,and that the free market, would, by the very nature of its implicit modus operandi automatically regulate the volume and composition of foreign immigration into the US "wisely", that is, in a way that it precluded the possible development of any potentially dangerous political destabilisation. I totally disagree. (As I mentioned in my previous post the theory neo-liberal, market fundamentalism was proven false in September of 2008 when it triggered the GFC and thereafter years of desperate misery and suffering for countless millions of Americans ( in fact the US today has still not totally recovered from this disaster ! So I do not share CATOs faith in the capacity of the market to safely regulate US immigration)

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Dachshund
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

IEDConsultancy,

I wholly concur with the very good point you have made above re how many disaffected youth in the West are currently vulnerable to allure of Islamic fundamentalism. The West today has, I firmly believe, entered a phase of cultural decline. A pernicious relativism ( moral, epistemic and metaphysical) has firmly embedded itself throughout Western societies, people are confused and lost amidst the drifting sands of a pervasive skepticism and cynicism. The West is progressively losing faith in the virtue of its own traditional values, its strength of (cultural) character waning and it its will to proudly defend itself from the potential incursion of foreign cultures bent on its destruction is weakening.

For many of the disaffected, marginalised youth of the West, Islamic fundamentalism offers a very tempting solution to the feelings of meaninglessness, worthlessness and despair that afflict them in the modern West. Islam, unlike the late West has no doubts or misgiving whatsoever about its integrity and the virtue of its traditional beliefs and customs, it has total confidence in the values it embraces and declares to humanity. It holds out, for many "lost" Western youth the promise of a clear-cut, vital and righteous world-view, one that will promptly banish the heavy gloom of nihilism and doubt that blights them. In its place Islamic fundamentalism can , it assures them, shine a bright light of purpose, hope, meaning and value in their lives. All one has to do is covert to the cause of and suddenly life will be worth living again; there will be iclear guidance provided as to what is right and what is wrong, there will plenty to do, not least a wicked enemy to defeat in a just and glorious war, and, of course at the end of it all, the reward of life in an eternal paradise for those who have fought the good struggle.

This is another important reason that we, in the West, must do everything we can to stop the immigration of Muslims from abroad into our societies.

Regards

Dachshund
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

LuckyR wrote: June 10th, 2018, 2:32 am Actually Hillaryism has 2.8 million more members
Actually, Hillary is a corrupt, crooked politician - a criminal who should be behind bars. Her "wrap sheet" makes Nixon look like Cinderella (!)

And I'd wager London to a brick that YOU voted for Hillary in the last election, right LuckyR ?

Come on - "double-dare" you to tell us all LucKy, - am I right or am I wrong !?

Dachshund Woof, Woof
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

Dachsund, what disaffected Western youth want is jobs and bright futures not some medieval religion.

And IEDCon, isolating islamist nations is hardly possible. Firstly, we are currently trading with some islamist nations and bombing others. Secondly, we need to send compassionate aid to oppressed Muslims within those islamist countries.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

The problem of disaffected youth in the West is not just an economic issue that can be solved mathematically by fiscal, etc, policies that target unemployment. What ails many of these young people is a spiritual malaise, a deep existential cancer of "forsakenness", dreadful a loss of meaning in their lives, a loss of any faith in their societies' traditional values, a loss of hope for the future. To cut to the chase, he root cause of this problem is modern West's abandonment of it's Christian religious traditions. When Western Enlightenment reason arrogantly sundered itself from a foundation in Christian faith disaster was inevitable. I give you the history of 20th century as proof of what I say; never before, in 6000 years of civilization has such evil and murderous calamity beset the human race on this Earth. The West has, ironically engineered its own civilizational decline with the very same brand of Godless, "go-it-alone" human Enlightenment rationalism that it thought would create heaven on Earth.

The West is now struggling in thrall of a crisis of rationalism; Enlightenment reason has turned on itself and the West it is now steadily inhaling the poisonous gas of relativism and skepticism that its own arrogance has released into very the air that it breathes. The young are the most vulnerable to the toxins, they are the first to suffer. They have been, in short, -(metaphorically speaking) -"cut adrift" and abandoned by their own Western culture as it grows ever more ill and feeble in itself.They, the youth of the West are becoming, ever more , like fragile boats on a stormy, treacherous sea with no clear beacon of light to guide them safely around the jagged rocks that threaten to destroy them. For many the simple, though rock-solid , absolute moral certitudes of Islamic fundamentalism represent an an attractive and desperately needed ray of hope; and in their despair they will grasp it.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

Dachshund wrote:
The problem of disaffected youth in the West is not just an economic issue that can be solved mathematically by fiscal, etc, policies that target unemployment. What ails many of these young people is a spiritual malaise, a deep existential cancer of "forsakenness", dreadful a loss of meaning in their lives, a loss of any faith in their societies' traditional values, a loss of hope for the future. To cut to the chase, he root cause of this problem is modern West's abandonment of it's Christian religious traditions. When Western Enlightenment reason arrogantly sundered itself from a foundation in Christian faith disaster was inevitable. I give you the history of 20th century as proof of what I say; never before, in 6000 years of civilization has such evil and murderous calamity beset the human race on this Earth. The West has, ironically engineered its own civilizational decline with the very same brand of Godless, "go-it-alone" human Enlightenment rationalism that it thought would create heaven on Earth.
Durkheimian anomie affects not only young people.
The long withdrawing roar of the sea of faith together with anomie was an effect of agricultural and industrial revolutions, followed by urbanisation and the rule of science and technology. It seems unlikely that a mass conversion to Islam or islamisation will follow such enormous social upheavals, as it's mainly old and not -too- well -educated people who react with a regression to passe meaning systems.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost »

Personally I’m all for skepticism! The issue is when people start expressing “skepticism” as if it is some kind of “poison” rather than the bedrock upon which meaningful human exploration takes place.

Too much skepticism could be said to create nihilistic views of the world, whilst too little could be said to create ideological dogma and social stagnation in the face of a changing world. Adaptation is required the puzzle is creating an admixture stable enough to sustain itself through the changing times.

If we’re to conclude one solution fixes all problems then I suggest we consider the possibility of being dangerously wrong rather than act like someone trying to kiss a snake naively assuming the feeling is mutual. Consider the harm that could be done to a passive beast we assume to dangerous, just as we consider the harm done to us by acting passively where aggression is required.

Not all snakes are dangerous and not all are out to get us. In fact we can likely learn a great deal without resorting to a “shoot first ask questions later” mentality.

Is it just to lock a man up for life because he may commit murder? Let us say it’s 50 50. Would you lock up an innocent man for life? In the real world consider that our estimations are far less accurate when applied to individuals and have large margins of error too (given the unknown future.)

It seems the issue is more about theology here and how ideology and society adapt to technological and political shifts. The world is quite a likely thing. One day we’re out in the wilderness hitting rocks together to spark a fire to life, and the next we’re all within relatively easy reach of each other with the “wilderness” something of an external thing surrounded by our own self made “wilderness”.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Dachshund wrote: November 16th, 2017, 5:35 pm I recently posted a topic in the "Philosophy of Politics" forum regarding Donald Trump and the question of Muslim immigration, though upon reflection, I feel that the issues involved are interesting enough to warrant being put up for debate again here in the "General Philosophy" section of the forum.
Racism is not a viable philosophy.

Let's ban all racists!
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Burning ghost
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost »

ThomasHobbes wrote: June 11th, 2018, 5:43 am
Dachshund wrote: November 16th, 2017, 5:35 pm I recently posted a topic in the "Philosophy of Politics" forum regarding Donald Trump and the question of Muslim immigration, though upon reflection, I feel that the issues involved are interesting enough to warrant being put up for debate again here in the "General Philosophy" section of the forum.
Racism is not a viable philosophy.

Let's ban all racists!
Let’s ban all people who want to ban people ... wait a minute! :oops:

:P
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

ThomasHobbes wrote: June 11th, 2018, 5:43 am Racism is not a viable philosophy.

Let's ban all racists!
Given the fact that you admire Thomas Hobbes, I figure that you are a white boy who lives in the West, probably in the UK or the US, for example, and probably in some relatively leafy middle-class neighbourhood.

If so, before you start preaching about racism here's what you should do to ensure that you have a sound education in the basic principles of the subject matter...

(1) Write off to the relevant Embassy and see if you can get yourself a travel Visa that gives you permission to stay (as a foreign visitor) in either: (A) Iran or (B) South Africa for a continuous period of 12 months.

(2) If you are successful getting a Visa, then put yourself on a flight to either Tehran or Johannesburg; you choose.

(3) After you arrive in Tehran or Johannesberg, you are to live in either city for the full 12 months, and in that time you are to get out and about and freely mingle with the local inhabitants - immerse yourself fully in the local culture. ( NB: while you are there, in whichever city you have chosen to visit, you are, BTW not permitted to carry any kind defensive weapon like a handgun on your person, nor hire any kind of personal security to escort you as you travel about in either of these places).

(4) If you manage to stay alive for a full 12 months in either Tehran or Johannesburg, and you are still physically able to fly back home ( i.e. you are not in hospital on life support after having been shot, stabbed, bashed and beaten, tortured etc, to within an inch of your life, then, when you are home, log on to this Philosophy Forum again and send a post to tell us all how you got on in Iran or South Africa, and whether not your theories of race and politics have been altered in any way by your experiences abroad.

Regards

Dachshund
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

Dachshund, one might condemn islamist regimes across the board and not be a racist.
Dachshund, did you not understand the term Durkheimian anomie and my sociological comment as it applied to your analysis of disaffected youth?I ask because you have been unable to reply to my post.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Sy Borg »

I would be happy for the west to stop all immigration until the infrastructure catches up. Much more concerned about numbers than race. With better infrastructure more people are included and given opportunities and lifestyles, existing and new citizens alike.

At present, western cities are groaning under the weight of corporate pressure to keep "importing" more potential customers. The migration system in my country, Australia, is continuing to be unsustainably unbalanced. The cost is in reduced standard of living - more pollution, traffic jams, less parking, less space, less green space, less privacy, more violence, congested and unreliable public transport, less places for kiss to play, and greater urban heat island effect, which has unnaturally made western Sydney in summer one of the hottest places on Earth.

Potential terrorists are just the icing on the cake, though most seem to be home grown and sometimes "middle class white boys".
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

When people in a philosophy [last bastion of truth] forum link 'Islam' so directly with 'Racism' it is a sign the state of philosophy with these people has 'gone to the dogs'.
This is the result of such people being subliminally cowed by the Islamic strategy of striking terrors in the heart of believers till they submit to the wishes of Islam.

Here is Allah's command to Muslims to cast terror in the hearts of non-believers;

  • Quran 3:151. We [Allah] shall cast terror [R3B: l-ruʿ'ba] into the hearts of those [infidels] who disbelieve because they [infidels] ascribe unto Allah partners [ShRK: ashrakū idols and deities], for which no warrant hath been revealed.


And to do so at least twice a year to keep them on the toes with a constant state of terrors and fears;

  • 9:126. See they [infidels] not [Do the infidels ever realized] that they [infidels] are tested once or twice in every year? Still they [infidels] turn not in repentance, neither pay [do] they [infidels] [take] heed.


The point here is Islam via Muslims is strategically conflating [rhetorically] Racism [UN backed UDHR] with Islam and thus be able to shut those who critique Islam's evils and violence so that Islam can continue to dominate and subdue the minds of non-Muslims. This strategy is very evident with many non-Muslims being cowed and doing Islam's bidding for domination via subliminal control.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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