Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

An interesting case study and lesson from the past re the OP is that of the resulting Bengali Muslims [Rohingya] mess in Myanmar.
It is a fact the present situation is a mess and the victims are innocent people from the Muslims and also the local Buddhists.
But the ultimate root cause is the inherently toxic and malignant evil ideology of the religion wherever it infect.

There were a small minority of Muslims in the Rakhine and Arakan provinces in West Myanmar since >500 years ago living peacefully with the local Buddhists and Hindus.
In the early 1920s++ the British enabled mass Muslims immigration into the area for various field works and later fighting forces as resistance against the Japaneses in the 1940s.

Then note the default resultants when the number of Muslims increased in any location;

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-902514
EXPOSING THE LIES AND MANIPULATION in ‘THE HIDDEN GENOCIDE’ FROM AL JAZEERA
(by Rick Heizman)
2:10 The word GENOCIDE is used, also, to inflame opinion. Okay, let’s talk about GENOCIDE.

The film purposely doesn’t mention the REAL GENOCIDES that are historical and well documented – in 1942 the minority Bengali Muslims (the word Rohingya was not used at that time) were armed by the British to fight the advancing Japanese in World War II, but as soon as the British retreated the Bengalis used the weapons – not against the Japanese – but to launch a GENOCIDE against the Buddhists, burning down over 400 Buddhist villages, and slaughtering 30,000 Rakhine people.

Since then Rohingya have formed Mujahid (holy warrior fighting for Islam) groups to engage in Jihad (holy war) and declared their goals, numerous times, of a Muslim-only separate state.

The talk of many of the leaders and imams of the Rohingya is of eliminating the Buddhist population, and THAT IS ENCOURAGING THEM TO COMMIT GENOCIDE. Example: In 1985, Ahmed Shah, the Chairman of RLO – Rohingya Liberation Organization – freely distributed many copies of his recorded cassette tape urging the Bengalis in the Maungdaw District to drive all non-Muslims out of the District. He was basically calling for the GENOCIDE OF RAKHINE BUDDHISTS and all other non-Muslims of Maungdaw District.

3:10 The film says the population of Rakhine State is about one million (1,000,000) Buddhist and 800,000 Muslims. Very far from the truth, there are about THREE MILLION Buddhist and 800,000 Muslims, and it is the Muslim population that has grown so quickly with massive migration across the border from Bangladesh.
As a divine duty, Muslims cannot integrate with non-Muslims because the Q-u-r-an brainwashed them as superior to the nons.

It is this default that caused the nons in Rakhine and the rest of Myanmar to fear the 'Muslims' based on their own past experiences and reports of Muslims atrocities in other parts of the World. We cannot expect all the nons to be saints and some who are evil prone will react in evil ways as we have seen.

But like any problem the critical way to understand and find solutions to the problem is to analyze and find the ultimate and proximate root causes which in this case leads to the inherently toxic and malignant evil ideology of the religion.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

Here is a different perspective to the story of the Bengali Muslims [Rohingya].

HISTORY, ISSUES and TRUTH in ARAKAN
https://issuu.com/rickheizman/docs/hist ... uth_arakan
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Belindi
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

Spectrum wrote:
Bengali Muslims [Rohingya] mess in Myanmar.
it's not a "mess"! It's an enormous cruelty and a blatant abuse of power by the military regime.

I dislike and distrust all religions. However banning ignorant peasants is not the way to counter their superstitions.
Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

It is a mess because it is inherent in the religion to create mess wherever it is present. Note what is happening in Europe at present.
Belindi, would you dare at present to walk alone in a Muslim majority area in your UK. Note the contrast 30 years ago when there were not many Muslims around.
Note the Rochdale and many other scandals involving Muslims in your UK.

The current mess in Myanmar according to the above started when there was an exodus and illegal mass immigration of Muslims into West Myanmar. To resolve the problem they should be sent back to where they came from.

I am not saying all Muslims should be deported.
Those Muslims who settled in Myanmar long ago >150 years ago can stay. Those who came illegally later should be deported and more so because their religion do not permit them to genuinely integrate with the rest of the population.

The scenario is Myanmar is a good case study why no non-Muslim Nations should accept mass Muslim immigration.
Belinda wrote:I do walk in the Muslim district as it's the best shopping area, and I feel very safe. My personal impression of Muslims is that they are law-abiding and unadventurous in their beliefs.

The Rochdale scandal was bad for Muslims who generally want to be respected and law-abiding. I think I'd agree with you that religions are divisive of communities and Islam is even worse than modern Christianity. Islam never had a Reformation, so Islam is potentially more didactic and divisive than Christianity. Judaism has become horribly political in Palestine Israel, and its own Reformation has not benefited it there.

Sending people back to where they came from has a date on it. I don't believe that Islam benefits any community, as Islam shows remarkable resistance to liberalisation. The fact that Muslims are nice ordinary people is possibly due to ordinary human sympathy plus the nicer bits of the Koran. In all cases of "sending people back" repatriation is not possible as the individuals are different from when they migrated, and the country of origin is different from when the people migrated. The result of "sending people back" is enormous cruelty as the policy against the Rohingya illustrates.

A smaller illustration of "sending people back" is a matter for contention with the British government right now. A Vietnamese youth of nineteen was captured as a slave aged ten, survived a march across land to Britain where he worked as slave in cannabis factories under a gang, was rescued by a Christian minister and his wife who fostered and educated him. He has now (Amber Rudd) to be returned to a country where he knows nobody, and will be murdered by the gang.

The scenario in Myanmar is , please God, not a scenario that can happen in the UK. This country is not a military dictatorship, and has laws for free speech and still has a free press. I hope to God America can say that same in these Trump days!

I think that you have point worth debating the point of restricting immigration to specially desirable persons. However Muslims will be able perhaps by the third generation be able to stop being religious fundamentalists? And in the meantime it does seem if you look at the stats, that at present American Muslims are particularly law-abiding individuals? If America can, like Britain, accept mixed religions and social classes, then America may similarly become a civilising influence upon the world.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Steve3007
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Steve3007 »

Are some of the Rohingya more than 150 years old?!? Wow. Say what you like about Islam but it must be good for what ails you. Maybe it's all the fasting.
Steve3007
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Steve3007 »

Spectrum wrote:As a divine duty, Muslims cannot integrate with non-Muslims because the Q-u-r-an brainwashed them as superior to the nons.
Spectrum, in the course of your discussions about and studies of Islam have you debated much with people who identify themselves as Muslim and who claim to personally know that religion? If they tell you that they interpret the religion in a different way to the way that you interpret it, do you accept that? Or do you regard their interpretation as incorrect? Do you think there is any room for different interpretations of that religion's holy texts, or do you think that it is sufficiently clear that one interpretation is objectively correct and others are objectively wrong?

(You've been discussing this subject for a long time so you've almost certainly been asked something similar to this before. If so, apologies for asking you to repeat yourself.)
Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

Steve3007 wrote: February 7th, 2018, 3:42 am Are some of the Rohingya more than 150 years old?!? Wow. Say what you like about Islam but it must be good for what ails you. Maybe it's all the fasting.
OK, noted the gaffe.
I meant the later generations whose ancestors settled >150 years ago.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Steve3007
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Steve3007 »

I meant the later generations whose ancestors settled >150 years ago.
Yes, I kind of realised that's what you meant. I was making the point that if you go down the route of expelling someone from a country because their ancestors were illegal immigrants you might have some interesting consequences.
Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

Steve3007 wrote: February 7th, 2018, 3:55 am
Spectrum wrote:As a divine duty, Muslims cannot integrate with non-Muslims because the Q-u-r-an brainwashed them as superior to the nons.
Spectrum, in the course of your discussions about and studies of Islam have you debated much with people who identify themselves as Muslim and who claim to personally know that religion? If they tell you that they interpret the religion in a different way to the way that you interpret it, do you accept that? Or do you regard their interpretation as incorrect? Do you think there is any room for different interpretations of that religion's holy texts, or do you think that it is sufficiently clear that one interpretation is objectively correct and others are objectively wrong?

(You've been discussing this subject for a long time so you've almost certainly been asked something similar to this before. If so, apologies for asking you to repeat yourself.)
I have joined specifically Islamic Forums and have discussed with many Muslims [scholars and others] who are very familiar with Islam. Besides debating contentious issues, one of my intention was to learn Arabic and many are very willing to give tips on Arabic.

There are 6,236 verses in the Quran and many of these are not contentious thus are agreeable by most.
Where the verses are contentious, it is quite obvious most will not agree with me.
Initially when researching the Quran I did to change my mind from my initial understanding of certain verses but after almost 3 years of researching the Q-u-r-a-n I am quite confident of my interpretations are the correct one.

When researching the Q-u-r-a-n where the verses are contentious I access more than 50 English translations of the Q-uran. One point is none of the 50 English translations are exactly the same, each will have some difference from others.

Note the contentious term 'Jihad' which is understood by Muslims and non-Muslims as 'holy war' while others insist it mean 'striving' which relate to striving for good causes or against lust, etc. If we refer to Arabic and Arabic-English dictionaries, one meaning listed is 'holy war' while the etymological origin is 'striving'. It is something like, the original term 'gay = joy' is now dominated by 'gay = homosexual' in current use.

I have read the Q-uran and the term 'jihad' in the Q-uran is not specifically 'holy war' but its real use is 'striving' for various causes of Allah.
But because the critical ethos within the Q-uran is dominantly 'war' against the non-believers, the term 'jihad' is thus emotionally associated with 'holy war'. As such over the ages, the term 'jihad' is accepted as 'holy war' and over time adopted in Arabic dictionaries. So whenever a Muslim mentioned 'jihad' the intention [with feeling of aggression] is 'holy war' against the infidels. The term is seldom used to mean 'internal struggle' against lust, etc.

I have many discussions with knowledgeable Muslims who insist 'jihad' mean 'striving' and e.g. striving to overcome the lower self. Then I explain the facts and reality to them why 'jihad = holy war' and that is translated literally to real actions of evil. This is supported by empirical evidence. Thus my interpretation is more realistic with reality.

For any book, there are many valid relative interpretations depending on the reader's personal perspective and objectives in reading the book.

However, for the Q-uran I believe [toward future] humanity must direct it to only one objective interpretation in the contexts of objective truths why the religion is so evil as supported by real evidences of the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone and inspired by the tons of evil laden elements in the book.
It is like finding the reasons why the Mein Kempf was written, i.e. the psychological motivations for the book in relation to its consequences.

Actually no one has asked me above questions.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Belindi
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

Steve wrote:

Spectrum, in the course of your discussions about and studies of Islam have you debated much with people who identify themselves as Muslim and who claim to personally know that religion? If they tell you that they interpret the religion in a different way to the way that you interpret it, do you accept that? Or do you regard their interpretation as incorrect? Do you think there is any room for different interpretations of that religion's holy texts, or do you think that it is sufficiently clear that one interpretation is objectively correct and others are objectively wrong?
The problem with all three, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, is that they are all religions of the book which means that they are all subject to fundamentally applying to their Book for moral guidance. This does'nt work in practice as individuals have their own interpretations of any text. So-called 'apostasy' can be applied by any priests who happen to have the political clout to apply apostasy. Islam is the worst for fundamentalism as Islam has never undergone any reformation and remains medieval. This is why Islam is a special case for restricting immigration.

The question remains. Can Muslims be reformed by life in a free country and especially where there is a high quality and free education system? In Britain , Christian fundamentalist groups are gaining adherents, and this bodes ill for the future prospects of British Muslim education.

All I am saying is not making a case for repatriation of law abiding persons or their descendants. It's a case for restricting immigration. I voted Remain in the Referendum, and still would do so.
Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

Steve3007 wrote: February 7th, 2018, 4:59 am
I meant the later generations whose ancestors settled >150 years ago.
Yes, I kind of realised that's what you meant. I was making the point that if you go down the route of expelling someone from a country because their ancestors were illegal immigrants you might have some interesting consequences.
I was referring to the Bengali Muslims in the Myanmar situation with its specific historical situation.
I understand it may be complicated in other cases.
For other Nations, they should note the Myanmar situation as a case study and ensure there is no mass immigration of Muslims in the future.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Belindi
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

Spectrum wrote:
For other Nations, they should note the Myanmar situation as
a case study and ensure there is no mass immigration of Muslims in the future.
But Pakistan doesn't want them either. There is a difference between people on the one hand and the people's beliefs on the other.

America is not a military dictatorship yet. Sometimes the dispossessed and the poor are remarkably good citizens.
Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

Belindi wrote: February 7th, 2018, 6:34 am Spectrum wrote:
For other Nations, they should note the Myanmar situation as
a case study and ensure there is no mass immigration of Muslims in the future.
But Pakistan doesn't want them either. There is a difference between people on the one hand and the people's beliefs on the other.

America is not a military dictatorship yet. Sometimes the dispossessed and the poor are remarkably good citizens.
Note the following facts;
  • 1. All humans has the potential to commit evil and 20% [conservatively] are born with an active evil tendency - the evil prone.
    2. Islam is an immutable ideology and is inherentlty toxic and malignant with tons of evil laden elements.
Yes, there is a big difference between people and people's beliefs.
But when the natural 20% of evil prones are exposed to a set immutable toxic beliefs, terrible evils will manifest and the proof of this is so evident as below

Image

and note the tons of a full range of other evils committed by the evil prone Muslims who are inspired by the immutable evil laden elements in their holy texts.

Whatever the other benefits it is not worth the risk for any nations unless these people change to another religion or give up religion.

"Why Muslims in the West don't integrate ''
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Belindi
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

I keep telling, Spectrum, I don't like Islam either. And this is because of its adherence to a written Book which happens to contain a lot of stuff which most of us here in the developed world consider to be bad stuff, evil stuff. The Bible is similar though less forthright than the Koran.I dislike Christianity and Judaism too for the same reason I dislike Islam. Those bloody Books!

You statistics are one-sided. Most Muslims happen to be as ordinary as most Christians and most Jews. Just trying to live their lives and raise their kids without too much hardship. It is indeed remarkable that humans for the most part manage to be quite nice despite nasty religions.

I think that you have a good point about preventing immigration of people who are too much infected by religious fanaticism. This applies to all religionists not just Muslims. America and Britain have laws which should over- rule religiously inspired illegalities. I hear that some faith schools in the UK are encouraging bad beliefs about creationism , and sexism. I did not actually read that those are Islamic schools, alThough I'd not be surprised to learn that this is so. I oppose all faith schools whatever unreasoning beliefs they may espouse implicitly or explicitly.

I am sure that you are mistaken that religious fanaticism is genetic!
Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

Belindi wrote: February 8th, 2018, 5:39 am I keep telling, Spectrum, I don't like Islam either. And this is because of its adherence to a written Book which happens to contain a lot of stuff which most of us here in the developed world consider to be bad stuff, evil stuff. The Bible is similar though less forthright than the Koran.I dislike Christianity and Judaism too for the same reason I dislike Islam. Those bloody Books!
The holy texts of the three Abrahamic religions contains loads of evil element, the OT being the worst but these evil elements has different potential consensus due to the way they are presented and intended.
  • 1. The OT of the Jews has loads of evil and violent elements, but the focus of the Jews is very internal and confine to unity of the Jews as the chosen people.

    2. The NT of Christianity has an overriding pacifist maxim, love your enemies plus love your neighbors, give the other cheeks, love this love that, etc. If Christians are ever violent, it has nothing to do with Christianity nor Christ per se rather it is because they [SOME] as humans are evil.

    3. Islam is very terrible because all the evil and violent elements in the Q-uran are directed at non-believers as target to be killed and violently treated and such acts are deemed as divine duties for the Muslims. This is why the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims are so evident.
You statistics are one-sided. Most Muslims happen to be as ordinary as most Christians and most Jews. Just trying to live their lives and raise their kids without too much hardship. It is indeed remarkable that humans for the most part manage to be quite nice despite nasty religions.
Re those statistics, I have never focused the blame on the SOME Muslims who were unfortunately born with an active tendency and triggered by the evil elements in the Q-uran to commit evil acts.
The root cause of the statistics is the evil laden ideology.
It is the same with violence in the media, e.g. blaming the movies, books, computer games, etc. as the culprit that influences vulnerable children and adults to commit terrible evil acts.

So, NO, NO, NO .. I am not blaming the unfortunate Muslims who are actually victims of Islam the religion.
I think that you have a good point about preventing immigration of people who are too much infected by religious fanaticism. This applies to all religionists not just Muslims. America and Britain have laws which should over- rule religiously inspired illegalities. I hear that some faith schools in the UK are encouraging bad beliefs about creationism , and sexism. I did not actually read that those are Islamic schools, alThough I'd not be surprised to learn that this is so. I oppose all faith schools whatever unreasoning beliefs they may espouse implicitly or explicitly.
Note my point above there are very significant differences between the different Abrahamic religions in promoting evil acts and violence.
Islam is particularly dangerous because it is inherently toxic and malignantly evil where it will definitely and certainly inspire SOME Muslims [a % exist by default] who are evil prone to commit terrible evils.
Because we have problems identifying who is likely to commit evil and violence until it is too late, it would be wiser to prevent mass immigration of Muslims into any non-Muslim country.

The other two Abrahamic religions has bad beliefs, e.g. creationism and others but violent evil acts [so evident and threatening to humanity] is most critical thus warrant immediate attention.
I am sure that you are mistaken that religious fanaticism is genetic!
[/quote]You missed my point stated earlier;
  • 1. All humans has the potential to commit evil and 20% [conservatively] are born with an active evil tendency - the evil prone.
    2. Islam is an immutable ideology and is inherentlty toxic and malignant with tons of evil laden elements.
Only point one common to all humans is genetic.
Religious fanaticism not common to all religions nor humans is not genetic per se.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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