Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Post Reply
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

Yes, I know it " a little of a stretch" to you BG, that is because you are blissfully ignorant of realities like the Muslim doctrine of "Taqiya".

Those speakers you refer to at "Speaker Corner", when they declare that Islam is a religion of peace, or that Islam is a tolerant religion, or that militant fundamentalists like ISIS do represent true Islam, I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but "Yes, they are indeed all lies".

If you want to understand what they are doing - i.e; why they are lying like this, you need to get off your metaphorical butt and start to educate yourself about, say, "Taqiya" - (that would be a good place for you to start my naive little friend) - and how and why Muslims practice it in Western nations like the UK.

You've got a computer, you know how to research stuff on-line using search engines like "Google", so I'll leave you to it young man!

(And)hen you finally wake up to what is going on, you can thank this kindly sausage dog for having set you straight about the treachery of Muslims in the West today and why we need to legislate for a blanket ban any further Muslim immigration into our societies asap as top priority !

Kindest Regards

Dachshund - Woof, Woof !
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost »

I am not saying that what you’re saying isn’t going on to some degree. I am saying, and this is the point, that it is not literally ALL Muslims. I have friends who’ve been Muslim. They never wanted me dead or thought I was below them.

Freedom necessarily comes with opening your doors to some degree of hatred and aggression. Maybe the doors should be more closely monitored, and maybe those already behind the doors need more monitoring than those without - that is the tricky situation.

Groups of person’s are groups of people are stupid. I humbly accept my naivety on the subject. I am not uninformed though, I choose not to remain focused on one particular issue and look for broad patterns in the glorious mess known as “humanity”.
AKA badgerjelly
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by LuckyR »

Dachshund wrote: June 8th, 2018, 4:20 am I can see many good reasons why the West should impose a blanket ban on all muslim immigration immediately; I cannot see one good reason why it should not.

If anyone believes that there are good reasons for not banning muslim immigration into the West ( by the West , I mean white-majority, Christian nations like the US, the UK, Canada, Australia etc.) I would be very interested to hear what they are.

Regards

Dachshund
Wow, where to start?

Other than the unconstitutionality of it, right?

How exactly do you personally tell if someone is a Muslim? How should a giant bureaucracy tell if someone is a Muslim? Give them a questionnaire?

What if they are a Christian who used to be a Muslim?

Presumably the rationale (?) for such a ban would be the as yet unproven theory that immigrant Muslims are at significantly higher risk of causing lethal acts than either nonMuslim terrorists, natural born Muslims or other groups. If so, whom do you think would falsely claim to be a non Muslim: a harmless Muslim or a potential terrorist?

Rather than shooting from the hip the bleeding heart liberal CATO Institute has already addressed this issue in excruciating detail in a white paper whose conclusion is:

"Conclusion

Foreign-born terrorism on U.S. soil is a low-probability event that imposes high costs on its victims despite relatively small risks and low costs on Americans as a whole.68 From 1975 through 2015, the average chance of dying in an attack by a foreign-born terrorist on U.S. soil was 1 in 3,609,709 a year. For 30 of those 41 years, no Americans were killed on U.S. soil in terrorist attacks caused by foreigners or immigrants. Foreign-born terrorism is a hazard to American life, liberty, and private property, but it is manageable given the huge economic benefits of immigration and the small costs of terrorism. The United States government should continue to devote resources to screening immigrants and foreigners for terrorism or other threats, but large policy changes like an immigration or tourist moratorium would impose far greater costs than benefits."
"As usual... it depends."
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

LuckyR wrote: June 8th, 2018, 1:29 pm How exactly do you personally tell if someone is a Muslim? How should a giant bureaucracy tell if someone is a Muslim? Give them a questionnaire?
In principle it is very simple. A Muslim is, by definition, a person whose chosen religion is Islam, a person who is a follower of the Islamic faith. I believe that a person applying to immigrate to the United States should be required to declare what religion (if any) they practice. So the official paperwork that applicants for US immigration visas must complete should include a section requiring applicants to state whether or not they are practicing members of any particular religion. I do not believe such a requirement would constitute any material violation of privacy.
LuckyR wrote: June 8th, 2018, 1:29 pm What if they are a Christian who used to be a Muslim?
In that case I would have no objection at all to their being permitted to immigrate to the US.
LuckyR wrote: June 8th, 2018, 1:29 pm
Presumably the rationale (?) for such a ban would be the as yet unproven theory that immigrant Muslims are at significantly higher risk of causing lethal acts than either nonMuslim terrorists, natural born Muslims or other groups. If so, whom do you think would falsely claim to be a non Muslim: a harmless Muslim or a potential terrorist?
Before, I reply to your query, just a quick correction...your use the expression "harmless Muslims", that I must tell you is an oxymoron. All bone [/i]fide Muslims regard non-Muslims as infidels - enemies they are commanded by their God ( Allah) either to conquer and forcibly convert to Islam or - if needs be - exterminate. While not all Muslims may not personally have the stomach for beheading an infidel with a knife blade, they will have no qualms at about metaphorically pinning down the victims arms and legs while the knife-man does his job. Likewise, while not all Muslims will have what it takes to become suicide bombers, they will willing make the suicide bombs, and stand by cooling watching with no shred of emotion as the bomber walks slowly into a packed Western night-club full of teenagers. Inside every so-called "moderate", "peaceful" Muslim is a jihadist in waiting. While they are a minority in the nations of the West they will attempt to "blend in" and pretend to be decent, law-abiding citizens, etc; but the moment they achieve real political power (God forbid !), there will no more Mr nice guy, harmless, peace-loving Muslims to be seen anywhere, just serious-looking, humourless Muslims with guns and swords telling you -( if you're lucky) - that you now have just one option ... either convert to Islam or die.

To continue. The rationale for a total ban on Muslim immigration into the a Western nation like the US, is multifactorial. Here are just a few important examples of the many reasons that clearly justify such a ban.

(1) Muslims ( i.e.persons who practice the Islamic faith) necessarily endorse many beliefs, attitudes and values that are wholly incompatible with the prevailing norms of civilized behaviour and conduct that generally obtain a white - majority, Western, Christian nation like the United States.

(2) Muslims observe the articles of a religious legal code ( Sharia) that: (1) demonstrates utter disrespect/contempt the "rule of law" as that term is defined in the United States and (2) flouts and breaches (typically covertly) many State and Federal laws in the US.

(3) Muslims who are permitted to immigrate and reside in America DO represent - given the nature of their many extreme and violent religious beliefs - a real potential risk to the safety of all non-muslim Americans, ( whom, BTW they view as being mortal enemies in a Holy/Religious war they must subjugate or annihilate) either by: perpetrating terrorist violence directly: aiding and abetting, facilitating, financing, inciting, organizing the perpetration of terrorist violence by other Muslims; harbouring the perpetrators of terrorist violence; refusing to assist American authorities prevent the perpetration of planned Islamist terrorist violence.

(4) For a number of reasons Muslims immigrants are literally incapable of harmoniously integrating themselves into mainstream American society; permitting Muslim immigration into US communities will therefore inescapably exerts an undesirable fragmentary/disintegrative influence on social cohesion generally speaking. This, in turn, has the innate potential to provoke increased levels of social friction, strife and discord

(5) Muslim have no respect whatsoever for democracy or democratic principles; nor for the Western notion of universal, equal human rights such as those set down in international legal documents like the UNUDHR

(6) Muslims are wholly intolerant of other religious faiths/beliefs, they are not tolerant of Christianity, for ex, and therefore should not be permitted to immigrate into a majority Christian nation like the US.

There are many more good reasons I could set down for why the West should close it borders to all Muslims, the list above is hardly exhaustive.


As for the CATO institute, they are now just a bunch of neo-liberal goons basically, I'm a traditional Conservative BTW ( and NOT a neoliberal). The CATO institute thinks it would be a good idea, BTW, for America to...(wait for it)... loosen its border controls right up and LET THE MARKET DECIDE IMMIGRATION POLICY (because the market is very, very wise, you know, it always knows best!).

Words fail me. I mean, nn what PLANET do these clowns actually live?(!)

Let me tell you LuckyR, I lost all my faith in neoliberal market fundamentalism and whizz-kids in modern, right-wing, liberalist economic "think tanks" like CATO in September 2008 when the whole theory of "let-the-market-rip- my- good -man" went "BANG" overnight. An over-heated 6 trillion dollar US derivatives market red-lined and blew up, BIG TIME ( remember ?) creating a major GFC almost literally overnight. Don't worry, said CATO and Co, as the 18-wheel Juggernaut flew down the country lane at 130 mph. Keep calm and have a cup of tea everyone, the derivatives market is just a little frisky, HA !, It will sort itself out, just you wait and see - the free market always does, no need to panic folks !... Yeah, right... So much for Hayek and his dorky devotees in booby hatches like the CATO institute ! What CATO says doesn't cut any ice with me, Lucky. Save it for someone who interested.

Regards

Dachshund Woof, Woof !!
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by LuckyR »

Golly, what’s your solution for all the non-harmless (by your reckoning) Muslims who are... ALREADY HERE!!!!! I am just freaking out thinking of the risk. Just so you know that’s about 3.4 million and will be the second largest religion in the US around 2040.

BTW by your logic all terrorists have to do to slip by your “blockade” is fake converting to Christianity, so much for the Wall...

And your description of all Muslims is approximately as accurate as saying that all Christians believe in stoning to death all those who worship false idols (any other religion than Judaism and Christianity) Deuteronomy 17:2-5

As to your convenient description of the CATO institute, “liberal” is currently a term that has little to no meaning online, other than “I don’t agree with this”. At best it is a relative descriptor, like “tall” (tall compared to what?) You are free, of course to feel that CATO is liberal, though many, if not most would not describe it’s founder, Charles Koch (of Koch brothers fame) with that terminology.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost »

Clearly there is no discussion to be had here. This thread was set up for hollering and ranting.

I doubt it’ll be the second largest religion in the US by 2040. Such “predictions” are really just guesswork. Weather predictions are predictions based on shifting seasonal changes, based on the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. In 20 years the US might even exist anymore and we’ll all be under the whip of ET’s.
AKA badgerjelly
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

It's true that Islam was never altered and modernised by the scientific enlightenment as was Christianity. Is it impossible that it never can be ?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by LuckyR »

Burning ghost wrote: June 10th, 2018, 1:44 am Clearly there is no discussion to be had here. This thread was set up for hollering and ranting.

I doubt it’ll be the second largest religion in the US by 2040. Such “predictions” are really just guesswork. Weather predictions are predictions based on shifting seasonal changes, based on the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. In 20 years the US might even exist anymore and we’ll all be under the whip of ET’s.
Well there is a relationship between “predictions” (it was actually a projection, from Pew research) and guesswork, but I would place your doubt of the projection closer to guesswork than their crunching of the numbers. Either could be true but what is clear is that Islam is growing in popularity in the US faster than Judaism, and unless there is a change for some reason it will move from third to second place at some point.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

I had heard that the largest religion in America is Trumpism.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by LuckyR »

Belindi wrote: June 10th, 2018, 2:23 am I had heard that the largest religion in America is Trumpism.
Actually Hillaryism has 2.8 million more members
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

I mean, Trumpism is a religious cult. By cult I mean a religion based upon a personality.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost »

I think you’ll find certain “Chiristian” persuasions are growing much faster in the US than Islam.

The you have to consider the general flippancy with how people tick their particular “belief” box. The same goes for “race” - yes used to do government surveys in Brasíl where many of the population would tick “Caucasian” when clearly their skin tone and facial features said otherwise.

The point being subjective views are not easily measured by how one perceives oneself and/or others. Hence the Sausage Dog quagmire of misrepresentations of some other representation of a reputation.
E
By all means continue and see if you can make headway here. It’s beyond me how to go about it, likely because I’m too blunt at times.
AKA badgerjelly
User avatar
IEDConsultancy
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: June 10th, 2018, 5:44 am

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by IEDConsultancy »

I did not have time to read through all 18 pages worth of replies here, but I will nevertheless address a few points and lay down some information.

Many people believe Islam to be a religion, it is imperative that they come to understand that this is not correct. The Arabic term used to characterize Islam is not religion, but “din,” which generally means "way of life," however in the Islamic context this term refers to, “ones acknowledgement of obligation or indebtedness to Allah and the requirement to repay ones debts through submission and obedience to his judicial authority, commands and ordinances,” the term Islam means "total submission and obedience,"

The term Muslim literally means "one who has totally surrendered and submit to the divine authority, commands and ordinances of Allah."

These terms are characterizations of submission and obedience to a particular political ideology and are a recognition of citizenship to the nation that employs it (the Caliphate,) as the term "Muslim" loosely corresponds to the term "law abiding citizen."

Now for the purposes of clarification: "For the purposes of the law, the criteria of religion are twofold: first, belief in a Supernatural Being, Thing or Principle; and second, the acceptance of canons of conduct in order to give effect to that belief, though canons of conduct which offend against the ordinary laws are outside the area of any immunity, privilege or right conferred on the grounds of religion."

Therefore, religion consists of two parts, faith in and worship of, a god or gods and canons of conduct that are in compliance with the law. These canons of conduct are in actuality simply the freedoms of an individual, as anybody can adopt and/or promote beliefs and actions that are in compliance with the law. However, aspects such as mergers of church and state or "divine law" (theocracy) and the promotion of human rights violations, violence, subjugation, bigotry and so forth are therefore not aspects of religion, they are criminal elements of political ideology that have no place within modern societies.

As such it is imperative that when one speaks about "Muslims" (an individual whom is self-declared as a practitioners of the "Islamic religion"), they must be able to identify whether or not said individual is a "moderate Muslim" whom follows the general practices within the realms of the man-made legal structure and doesn't take the doctrine literally and a genuine, literal Muslim, whom genuinely believes in the Quran, Hadith and Sunnah, as such an individual does not, cannot and will not abide by man-made laws where they contradict Shari'a.

The reason Muslim migration must cease is simple, they do not, will not and cannot assimilate. Sahih Muslim 1847, states that Muslims must stick together and obey their leader and that if that is not an option, it is better to die than to assimilate to non-Muslim ways. This is a verse from an authentic Hadith, it is literally against their core ideology and a commandment from the God that they have a genuine belief in. As such the situation is simple, if we wish to become Muslim, then let them in, if we do not wish to become Muslim, they need to be left to Muslim countries.

As for a comment I saw regarding 'if you think Muslims are not capable of being good people, then you need to go out and meet Muslims face to face to experience their humanity". It sounds logical on the base level but there are a few issues with your premise. Are they genuine Muslims? or are they moderate Muslims whom ignorantly identify as Muslim through no fault of their own? and most importantly, how is getting to know these people in a time of peace and within a western country going to grant you a realistic premise as to who these people are and what these people are capable of in the case of an Islamic revolution? I have no doubt the vast majority of Germans were lovely people too, but they nevertheless rallied together under a common cause and committed countless atrocities when it was called for, many of which i'm sure were against their better judgement or personal preference. To judge a person on their face value in a time, place and environment that doesn't accurately reflect the situation in which they are factually likely to behave in the manner in which people are concerned about is a great way to fabricate false positives.

The truth of the matter is that anyone that can be considered a "good person" who identifies as Muslim, upon learning the truth about Islam would find no issue in distancing themselves from the ideology or at the very least begin referring to themselves as a "moderate" for clarification.

The rest of my opinions can be found here [deleted advertisement].

Thanks for your time.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

IEDConsultancy, your post does not consider the possibility that sane individuals' world views might evolve. Your view of Muslims both moderate and fanatical is that they are as plagued by rigidity of mind as if they were demented. Once moderate Muslims are planted into a liberal society many can and do put away their backwardness and become educated. This may take generations as Muslims often aren't swift to integrate.

I share your dislike of islamism and islamic regimes. However isolationism isn't an effective way to curb islamism.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

IEDConsultancy, your post does not consider the possibility that sane individuals' world views might evolve. Your view of Muslims both moderate and fanatical is that they are as plagued by rigidity of mind as if they were demented. Once moderate Muslims are planted into a liberal society many can and do put away their backwardness and become educated. This may take generations as Muslims often aren't swift to integrate.

I share your dislike of islamism and islamic regimes. However isolationism isn't an effective way to curb islamism.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021