Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

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Belindi
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

You do a lot of reading-up, Spectrum. I approve. I see that you too can take the historical perspective .We will have to differ as which of us is overly optimistic/pessimistic about Islamic reformation.

Perhaps we may agree on the practical matter of how better to integrate Muslims in Europe and US?
Spectrum
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Spectrum »

Belindi wrote: February 15th, 2018, 5:30 am You do a lot of reading-up, Spectrum. I approve. I see that you too can take the historical perspective .We will have to differ as which of us is overly optimistic/pessimistic about Islamic reformation.

Perhaps we may agree on the practical matter of how better to integrate Muslims in Europe and US?
In this case, where God is omniscient and omnipotent there is no historical perspective when God has stated his religion, Islam is perfect [Quran 5:3] and thus he had delivered the eternal principles.

Islam has no provision for integration and in fact discourage integration with non-Muslims as reflected in the Quran as the core of Islam.
Since Islam cannot be reformed, there is no way true Muslims can integrate with non-Muslims in Europe, US or anywhere in the World.
The only way for Muslims to integrate with non-Muslims is for them to revert to being human beings and apply universal human values instead of immutable Islamic dictates.
  • 4:144 [Pickthall] O ye who believe! Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you?

    5:51 [Pickthall] O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
There are many such verses in the context of no integration with non-believers who are determine as swines, apes, ass thus dirty, unclean and stupid.


WHY Muslims Can't FULLY integrate in USA & Europe Society - BBC NEWS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKlWNDs9hkU&t=66s


Muslims in Germany do not like the word integrate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtN2gIKBHW8


HONEST Muslim American leader ' Islam Here to Dominate' 'Not here to integrate"
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Belindi
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

Spectrum supported his theory that Muslims cannot be other than Mohammadan literalists with

4:144 [Pickthall] O ye who believe! Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you?

5:51 [Pickthall] O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
But Spectrum, in order to live according to the letter of those Koranic verses Muslims would be unable to trade with or be educated alongside Christians and Jews. Some Muslim faith schools have indeed been warned to obey the law regarding gender equality in the classroom and playing field. Me, I disapprove of all faith schools. Muslim schools are arguably less progressive than for instance Roman Catholic faith schools. I would not know. The fact remains that despite religious hangovers most religious people including most Muslims do obey the law and strive to be friendly and not murder people.

Social class affects Muslims as it does everybody. Many if not most Muslims are poor. Poor people and rich people find refuge and moral support in class solidarity which is often symbolised by some religious tradition. Social equality and social mobility are the best antidotes to ultra-religiosity.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

I can see many good reasons why the West should impose a blanket ban on all muslim immigration immediately; I cannot see one good reason why it should not.

If anyone believes that there are good reasons for not banning muslim immigration into the West ( by the West , I mean white-majority, Christian nations like the US, the UK, Canada, Australia etc.) I would be very interested to hear what they are.

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Dachshund
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Burning ghost
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost »

Sausage Dog -

I always say if you cannot think of one reason to oppose your own view then you’ve likely approached it with a greater degree of bias than what you should and/or that you’ve done to in a trivial manner.

Banning groups of people based on presuppositions of who they are and what they think is quite silly. Baby and bath water analogy. We need, for example, kill all Germans at the end of WWII because they were fighting against us. Only the paranoid fool assumes everyone on the other side of the fence wants to be there.

Cutting immmigration I can perfectly understand. I can also understanding having certain reservations about where the people come from and how well they’ll assimilate into society. There is no such thing as a perfectly eligiable immigrants. Only time will tell.

Many countries prejudice “age” and “wealth” when it comes to immigration. Makes sense, but it is not a blanket ban.

If you cannot see a good reason above then let me be clearer. If you want immigrants then accept immigrants based on merit NOT only on group classifications (which is a necessary means of vague judgement - no denying that!)

If several families who’ve suffered are allowed into a country and prosper (whereas they would otherwise have died and been subject to rape and torture and inevitable death) at the cost of allowing one potential murderous person in what would you do?

That is a hypothetical so I don’t expect an answer. The issue is what is “moral” not merely a weighing of numbers against numbers and making emotionally defunct decisions based on “blanket” views of persons and/or people’s.

A progressive dialogue between faiths would be a good idea. Some good people try to do this, but there will always be resistance in both corners. Some people even wish for the anihilation of all religious ideologies! Again, baby and bath water problem.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

Burning Ghost,

I think I made myself perfectly clear when I said I was interested in hearing from anyone who believed that they could provide a good reason ( or reasons) why MUSLIMS should not be immediately banned from immigrating into Western nations like the US , UK and Australia.

I did not issue an open invitation for readers of this thread to submit rambling, desultory, rants about why - in their opinion - the general principle of applying a blanket ban on any hypothetical group of would-be immigrants to the West might be theoretically unsound.

If you are unable to provide at least one good (concrete)reason as to why MUSLIM immigration to the West should NOT be banned immediately, then please don't waste my time, as I am a busy sausage dog !

Regards

Dachshund
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

I guess the main reason would be that it goes against fundamental ideas about freedom of religion and rights to privacy - with the latter on the practical end of enforcing the policy, since people would have to declare their religious status. Yes, they are not in the West when seeking to immigrate, so they do not yet have rights to worship, here. But it becomes an official government policy regarding what is considered the wrong religion to have. So while not, in each instance, directly affecting Western citizens who are citizens or residents already, it creates a predendent for the government evaluating and punishing beliefs (as opposed to actions). It smacks of hypocrisy.

Though I wouldn't mind an international ban on the visas and travel of neo-cons based on their beliefs.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

Dachshund wrote: June 8th, 2018, 4:20 am I can see many good reasons why the West should impose a blanket ban on all muslim immigration immediately; I cannot see one good reason why it should not.

If anyone believes that there are good reasons for not banning muslim immigration into the West ( by the West , I mean white-majority, Christian nations like the US, the UK, Canada, Australia etc.) I would be very interested to hear what they are.

Regards

Dachshund
Some persons who self identify as Muslim are key workers, and law abiding citizens.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost »

Err ... was that meant to be ironic?

Can you provide one good concrete reason why anyone should not be banned. Don’t play dumb and label measured answered as “rants” because if you want to see me “rant” I can do that :)

List the number of reasons people are given immigrant status and apply to list of Muslim people. Not that difficult if you can pull your head out **** for a second and look at the stupidity of your question. Other people tend NOT to complain about blanket bans on murderers and rapists, on openly and actively setting out to commit criminal acts, and such things.

Give me one good reason why anyone with religious views should be banned? I would say there is room for non-secular political views to be looked upon with reservation. It is possible for people to adhere to democracy and liberalism even when issues oppose their disposition.

What’s next, sending all men to prison because they are more likely to commit violent crime than women? The very term “blanket ban” needs moral justification. People are willing to accept it when it is specifically targeting CRIMINAL ACTS not particular groups (hence the reason you’re not likely to find convinced criminals allowed through the immigration process.)

That I have to point this out is quite strange don’tyou think? The question is not why we should or shouldn’t create a blanket ban, but rather the moral implications of suggesting a “blanket ban” based on what people think. If it was a ban on immigrants from Syria (a war zone) because Syria was at war with country X then I could understand the caution, but would still expect refugee status in some situations deemed worthy. If someone was banned because they racist I would understand that too to a degree - but we don’t group people by personal views because we cannot tell who is or is not X.

It makes sense to be cautious about people associated with certain groups, but no sense to assume everyone in one particular group are the same.

What you asked was clear. Clearly ridiculous! Amend it or stop crying about it like my “rant” was somehow at fault.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

I agree with Burning Ghost. For instance it was a blanket ban upon all Japanese people that sent them all to internment in the USA.

I notice that in times of urgent need blanket bans become more generally acceptable. The police tend to stop and search black people more because of the rationale that there is a higher proportion of black people condemned for crimes. The cause of this very imprecise causal connection is fear due to rise in rates of violent crime. Nazis' blanket bans were ultimately caused by economic faults due to the Treaty of Versailles 1919.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

I do not see that requiring an applicant for immigration to a Western nation - (let's use the UK as an example) - to state their religion ( if they have one) would constitute a serious invasion of privacy. I do not believe such a request would in any way be unreasonable.

In the UK, in order for a foreign national to be granted an immigration visa, the Home Office must be satisfied that the applicant is a person of "good character". In the near future, it seems very likely that the existing tests that are applied for determining whether or not an individual applying for permission to immigrate to the UK is , or is not, of "good character" will include determining whether an applicant respects and affirms fundamental British values. The proposed five fundamental values are: (1) Democracy; (2) Individual Liberty; (3) The Rule of Law; (4) Mutual Respect and (5) Tolerance of those with different faiths and belief.

Muslims, who are, by definition, Islamists, would, of course, automatically fail this "fundamental values" test were it to be introduced ( as it damn well SHOULD be), and thereby be refused permission to immigrate to Britain on the grounds that they were of undesirable character.

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Dachshund
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost »

That is like saying all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. I am sure some do. There are likely many Christians who would also prefer that the Bible be the basis for common law and that stoning be brought back.

Of course I don’t think all Christians are like this ... but some are.

All said and done I do understand your concerns. Certain political posturing, and huge global political shifts brought about by changed in the medium of media’s, has left an uncertain taste in many people’s mouths. People like yourself maybe called overly cautious and others not cautious enough. Over all it’ll balance out this way or that and another issue will become more prevalent.

Immigration has been handled badly in the media. Too must posturing for my liking. We’ll never get it right, but we’ll keep trying the best we can.
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Belindi »

Dachshund wrote: June 8th, 2018, 7:33 am I do not see that requiring an applicant for immigration to a Western nation - (let's use the UK as an example) - to state their religion ( if they have one) would constitute a serious invasion of privacy. I do not believe such a request would in any way be unreasonable.

In the UK, in order for a foreign national to be granted an immigration visa, the Home Office must be satisfied that the applicant is a person of "good character". In the near future, it seems very likely that the existing tests that are applied for determining whether or not an individual applying for permission to immigrate to the UK is , or is not, of "good character" will include determining whether an applicant respects and affirms fundamental British values. The proposed five fundamental values are: (1) Democracy; (2) Individual Liberty; (3) The Rule of Law; (4) Mutual Respect and (5) Tolerance of those with different faiths and belief.

Muslims, who are, by definition, Islamists, would, of course, automatically fail this "fundamental values" test were it to be introduced ( as it damn well SHOULD be), and thereby be refused permission to immigrate to Britain on the grounds that they were of undesirable character.

Regards

Dachshund
But Muslims too are people. People generally take on religious identity in several ways. One way is to be cynically observant of the practice of rituals. Another way is to wilfully ignore certain disliked religious edicts, for instance Irish Catholics largely ignore the edict against contraception devices.

If any would be Muslim immigrants intend to disobey the laws then they should be refused entry. I gather that Muslims are able with good conscience to disobey certain edicts in the Koran. I would like to know the rationale for this. There must be a rationale, as there are many Muslims in the UK and so far only a minority of them are active or intending Islamists. I may be mistaken but I have the general impression that Muslims in the UK are conventional, generally lower class, peace loving, good neighbours, good pharmacists, business-oriented dentists, and good cooks.

Is it impossible for any Muslim to take the historical perspective on the Koran?
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Dachshund »

Burning Ghost,

I will tell you for a fact what ALL - ( not just some) -bone fide Muslims, including those who are currently residing in Western nations like the UK and the US believe. What they firmly believe is that ANY person ( and that includes YOU) who is not a follower of the Islamic faith should EITHER be forced to convert to Islam OR be put to death.

As far as I am concerned they are therefore persons of undesirable character and should be immediately deported from whatever Western nation they happen to be residing in RIGHT NOW.

For the same reason, ( and this, BTW, is just ONE of many reasons I could give you) individuals who identify as Muslim should NOT be permitted to immigrate into any Western nations in the first place, and the sooner countries like the UK, the US, and Australia, etc; amend their immigration laws to ban them from entering in the better.

As far as I am concerned Muslims are not welcome in the West and there are not "ifs" or "buts" about it, BG. It is a clear-cut, "black and white" issue. "Clear cut" in the sense that the nature of their religious beliefs and practices is such that they are wholly incompatible with the prevailing values of civilised Western societies FULL STOP. If they wish to hold the attitudes that they do - ( which in my opinion are unacceptably "antisocial" by any current British, American or Australian ,etc; standard)- and if they wish observe the barbaric articles of medieval Sharia law then they can get themselves a one-way ticket for a flight back to whatever Muslim-majority State they came from and carry on doing so there, and NOT in my back yard.

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Dachshund
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Re: Why the West must ban Muslim immigration

Post by Burning ghost »

If that is true Sausage Dog then I’d agree. It isn’t true though, just as the fact that not every Christian deems homosexuality as a sin.

You are entitled to your opinion obviously. It is only an opinion though, and one I can understand the felt need to attach hypoerbole to. I knew a few Muslims and they didn’t want to take over the UK nor put me to death for, the time, espousing very strong atheistic views.

I’ve also watched many people at speakers corner in the UK openly stating that they respect others views and don’t expect everyone to convert to Islam (even though they admit they think it is best.) I guess you can argue that they are all lying and that the people I personally know (who have next to nothing to do with the religious background they were brought up in) are still out for my blood - behind the smiles of friendship and rejection of their parents religious views?

Seems a little of a stretch to me mate. Sorry.

Of course I could be lying? WwwwoooooOoooOoOo! *gasp! ... but alas, I’m not, sorry again.
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