Why do we exist?

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Jan Sand
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Jan Sand »

We are on the edge of massive changes of the atmospheric stabilities, of the loss of the majority of insect life, of the poisoning of the earth to destroy much of its fertility and the big issues now concerning people are that we so love our idiotic weapons we cannot prevent the massive murder of school children or see that women are treated equally as men or that some people enjoy odd sex habits. In just a few years millions of people will have to move to better areas of the planet and the people in those areas will kill them rather than help them stay alive. The richest most powerful country in the world is now controlled by a very nasty total idiot who thinks a nuclear weapon is a useful device instead of suicide for the entire planet. And you remain optimistic. I am completely puzzled.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Sy Borg »

Only in the long term, Jan. In the short and medium term I am hugely pessimistic and it grieves me to think of the suffering that will be meted out on the most vulnerable species and people during this restructuring of the Earth's surface. At least the Permian extinction event only wiped out microbes. This time the losses will be felt much more keenly.

In the long term, however, I would expect the fairly continuous, if potted, progression to greater complexity and sophistication to continue and eventually spread out into space. Perhaps biological life and AI are only the beginning?
Jan Sand
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Jan Sand »

Scientific calculation indicates this universe (possibly amongst many others) still has a long way to go before whatever final dissolution depletes its possibilities. Being human and fully aware of how little time we needed to demonstrate how inadequate we are from even meeting our own basic requirements, not to speak of being in charge of an entire planet which we are determined to eliminate as a base for further life. Two million years is but a lightning flash of geological time and humanity has demonstrated extraordinary abilities in grasping and wielding planetary powers in that instant of existence but the total lack of maturity needed to be responsible and wise seems completely obvious. It was a nice try but indications other species, perhaps the octopus, if it can manage to extend its lifespan beyond a few years, and can survive the onrushing catastrophe of human idiocy might give it a better effort. I am neither optimistic nor pessimistic over the span of the existence of the universe since this bit of cosmic dust we proliferate on has yet to exhibit any real import to the future of the entire vast universe.
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LuckyR
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by LuckyR »

To my mind, these opinions are too shortsighted. Of the several episodes in the planet's history of various species' activities changing things for the worse for whole swathes of the populace, human activity is the only one where a significant number of the species in question considered for even an instant the impact of their activities on other species. How very thoughtful! Besides, even worse case scenario, in a million years, the impact of the original event will be difficult if not impossible to discern without significant effort.
"As usual... it depends."
Jan Sand
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Jan Sand »

No other species ever produced half wits with the power to make the entire planet radioactive. I suppose that can be considered a unique accomplishment.
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LuckyR
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by LuckyR »

Jan Sand wrote: March 28th, 2018, 4:39 pm No other species ever produced half wits with the power to make the entire planet radioactive. I suppose that can be considered a unique accomplishment.
Ho hum. The important atomic bomb radioactivity has half-lives in the tens of thousands of years or less whereas the impact of the oxygenation of the atmosphere has dominated the environment for at least 500 million years.
"As usual... it depends."
Jan Sand
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Jan Sand »

The progress that humanity is accomplishing to destroy life on the planet is indeed impressive. And the lack of interest in stopping that destruction is rather darkly amusing. Ho hum indeed.
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jerlands
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by jerlands »

Bebelle wrote: November 24th, 2017, 6:52 pm Have you ever felt that everything you do and will do is meaningless? That no matter how great you are at something you will never be truly important, and that's when you are good at something, because most of the time you are just average. So why should we live if our existence has no importance, if it is not going to make any difference in the world? No big changes, you are just one more person like many others.
We exist to defeat the lie.
The Moaning of the Bedouin wrote:Those who destroy the lie promote Ma'at;
those who promote the good will erase the evil.
As fullness casts out appetite,
as clothes cover the nude and
as heaven clears up after a storm

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Sy Borg »

Indeed Jan, we are death-riding the world and have no care for ourselves or the next generations. Not.

In the real world, the trends we all complain about are overpowering to us tiny beings that live a short time (aside from you ;). However, they are mere blips in the Earth's history. Imagine that someone complained to you that they had to ensure a microsecond of pain. You might say "ho hum" too. That's the kind of time scale difference being discussed.

Jan, let's say that the entire world suddenly decided to become clean and green - no more nonsense, let's act! Firstly, imagine it happening, and then imagine that not a single country would try to cheat or leverage advantages out of the situation.

Anyway, let's pretend that everyone had become genuinely serious about the environment. Suddenly the whole world is suddenly fully of far-sighted souls, all eschewing advantages and comfort today, living the simple life for tomorrow's benefit, with much improved public transport, cleaner air, etc. However, people would still breed until even that arrangement became unsustainable with ecosystem collapse through sheer weight of numbers. Being green will improve the Earth's carrying capacity but that leads us back to the initial problem.

This hypothetical clean, green world might delay the Holocene extinction event by some hundreds of years - terrific news perhaps for a few generations, but that's perhaps about the extent of the benefit. However, it's hypothetical and, unfortunately, not realistic.

Humans are, despite our claims to empowerment, largely subject to, and coercively responsive to, the environment. We are not in control, neither individually nor collectively, of numerous things that we convince ourselves are under our command based on post hoc rationalisations. I suppose we are in control if that is defined as "white knuckling on black ice".

Any intelligent, dominant species would have surely caused comparable levels of destruction; it would only be a matter of time. The path of another intelligent species would have been different to ours (due to chaos) but overpopulation and resource depletion would still be inevitable if the species was technologically capable.

Nor would I would hold no faith in intelligent octopi to build civilisations. If everything goes kaput, even AI, then rats are the obvious next candidate to become the next intelligent planet shaper. The advancement would happen much more quickly too because 1) rats are probably far more intelligent than the shrewlike mammals at the head of the post-dino line that ultimately lead to humans, and 2) earthquakes would unearth old human technology, which would hugely accelerate advancement.

Go you ratties!
Jan Sand
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Jan Sand »

I had rats for pets when I was six years old and they were wonderful companions. It was one kind of animal I loved and they loved me. I've learned to love many different kinds of animals, dogs, cats, sparrows, chicadees, a muskrat, a rabbit, a flock of parakeets, mice, pigeons, and, even, for a short time, a praying mantis who could turn his head and watch me. People here in Helsinki, no matter their many admirable characteristics of politeness and interpersonal considerateness and intelligent civilized ways, hate animals and are strictly forbidden to feed birds and squirrels. It tears me inside to not be able to consort with my small friends who are openly delighted to meet a curious human.

Unfortunately I am a completely obsolete human. This morning I had a long dream of wandering through the hardware stores of lower Manhattan with my father where there were wonderful displays of machine tools, drill presses, lathes. various punches and clamps and huge windows full of other devices for forming metal and wood. We tried out various tools together and enjoyed immensely the exploration. That's all gone now even here in Helsinki where in 1961 there were several fantastic tool shops just as in lower Manhattan. I am totally obsolete now as are those old tools and and there is nowhere a display of 3D printers but only swarms of cell phones and lap tops and stores selling apps where people can share family photos and play games of killing vampires. It is even illegal these days to repair some of these devices People just throw them away and get new ones.

I spend my time inventing new cake recipes and searching for people to give them to as I am too old to eat much of that stuff anymore. People are so immersed in total nonsense that the realities of making and inventing stuff is obsolete. Even as an artist with the techniques of Photoshop to play with and paper and paints cheap the field is so full of total nonsense it's like swimming in the ocean thirsty for fresh water and finding none. I diddle with poetry which almost no one seems to like - because it's probably bad but it's amusing to me and the state of the declining world run by thieves and murderers and people who cannot even fabricate a decent lie is, frankly, not to my taste.
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Rojack
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Rojack »

We may never know the answer.
Jan Sand
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Jan Sand »

Why is a rather peculiar word in the language since it presumes there is an answer. It seems most likely that how and when and where ask reasonable questions but why is a demon.
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jerlands
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by jerlands »

Jan Sand wrote: March 29th, 2018, 3:08 pm Why is a rather peculiar word in the language since it presumes there is an answer. It seems most likely that how and when and where ask reasonable questions but why is a demon.
Why is asking for the reason or purpose. It's the same question as" What is the purpose in life?"
Merriam Wbster wrote:Definition of why
: for what cause, reason, or purpose
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." - Mark Twain
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Sy Borg »

I'm disappointed to hear about the Finnish disliking animals, whose highly functional society is respected the world over. I don't understand how people could dislike other species; seemingly they have never bonded with one. I note that other highly advanced cultures like the Chinese and Japanese also care little for other species, although a minority now are "getting it".

This increasing lack of touch with nature (and thus our own fundamental natures) does not auger well for the rest of nature. It seems to me that an increasing number of people believe that ecosystems are not needed for survival, that technology will always find a way. It's probably true that it will always find a way for billionaires and their cohorts.

It appears to me that biology and humanity are transitional forms leading to whatever we are creating, which itself may be transitional.

We hominids, like any other species, tend to be most comfortable in the kinds of environments to which we were adapted. This new, alien and sterile high tech world largely only suits its architects and those currently growing up in wealthy families. However, this cannot change because the drive to progress is necessary for each nation to compete, so we are all locked into this tragedy of the commons that is driving the Holocene. Thus, we are not in control and what we do from here on mostly depends on the Earth's feedback to our changes.
Jan Sand
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Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Why do we exist?

Post by Jan Sand »

If a horsefly could talk and landed on my nose and in a tiny squeaky voice said to me "You are a big animal and know about black holes and how to make tomato sauce and sneeze much better than me so I assume you know what's really going on whereas we horseflies don't live very long and there simply are no decent TV series that are about horseflies.So what is the meaning of my life? You must know more than me."

So I must answer " The most important thing right now is that you get the hell off my nose. After that. when I figure what my purpose might be, I'll work it out for horseflies. Come back in five years and I'll see what I can work out for horseflies. I doubt that''s long enough for my exixtence to make sense but I'll give it a try."
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