Virtues and the individual

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Eduk
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Eduk » December 15th, 2017, 2:21 pm

That just feels a bit fatalistic to me.
For example Harris puts forward the argument that free will is an illusion. Whereas Dennett says we are not absolutely free but we are free 'enough'. I can see arguments that altruism could be entirely 'fake' but personally I think it's 'real enough'.
Again tough stuff to really prove.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 » December 15th, 2017, 2:32 pm

I see it as more empowering than fatalistic, the ability to cope with all of your apparent reality.
Something I always thought was weird, was Harris getting so much credit for claiming free will an illusion. Free will was being refuted thousands of years ago by Democritus and Leucippus, and has since been refuted so many times, he acts as if all the arguments against free will were intuitive to him. And I said in another thread I didn't get Dan Dennett's compatibilism.

Eduk
Posts: 979
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Eduk » December 15th, 2017, 2:44 pm

Well I think compatibilism is logically possible. Doesn't mean it's true though. At the end of the day no one knows what free will 'is', so for me you shouldn't say it is one thing or another, only that one thing or another is possible or more or less likely.
I agree about Harris, I only name dropped him as he has easy to view, recent, YouTube videos.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 » December 15th, 2017, 5:14 pm

I do listen to Harris's podcast, despite what he's done in claiming free will. I do not want to make this a free will thread, but if you can, please explain what you mean by no one knows what free will is, and compatibilism is logically possible.

Namelesss
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Namelesss » December 16th, 2017, 4:09 pm

There are the 'conditional virtues' of the thoughts/ego! They do lead to suffering.
There are the 'unconditional' (transcendental) Virtues of unconditional Love/Enlightenment;

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (Charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!
No 'suffering'. *__-

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

tat tvam asi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi)

Maxcady10001
Posts: 381
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 » December 16th, 2017, 4:37 pm

What are these conditional virtues you mention? What's the difference between a conditional and unconditional virtue?
Empathy, love, and happiness are emotions, and an emotion cannot be a virtue, as virtues must be acted out voluntarily, just look at the difference between these and the other unconditional virtues you name, there is clearly a difference of voluntarism.
Also, I do not see how humility leads to unconditional love.Humility is also harmful to the individual. A person who is humble has a low estimate of themselves. That is what humility encourages, lowering a person's estimate of themselves in relation to others. It is raising others above themselves, and it is obviously harmful. Why should anyone consider another above himself?
Also, the argument is easily made that honesty and faith are harmful to the individual. Consider honesty, if a person were truly honest, they would come to be detested by everyone they met. They would always point out others flaws, and weaknesses, they would be cruel in their implacable honesty. The argument can also be made, that in order to love and be loved, a person must lie. Consider your relationships with those around you, do you always tell the truth, of course not, in order to maintain a degree of pleasantness in our everyday interactions we all lie. Now regarding faith, faith is harmful to the individual because it despises action. To have faith is not to act, but to be complacent and hope for the most impractical conclusions. It is not to be actionable, and to do what is necessary to survive and thrive. There is suffering of the individual, when the individual resorts to complete honesty, and faith.
Also, what makes virtues transcendental? What is it they are transcending?

Maxcady10001
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 » December 16th, 2017, 4:38 pm

I do see how humility leads to an unconditional love of others, however it teaches an individual to despise himself.

Namelesss
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Namelesss » December 16th, 2017, 9:29 pm

Maxcady10001 wrote:
December 16th, 2017, 4:37 pm
What are these conditional virtues you mention? What's the difference between a conditional and unconditional virtue?
Good question! *__-
I assume that you are familiar with the common meaning of these terms?
'Conditional' means that there are 'conditions'. For example; I love you because you have great hooters and a sense of humor! That 'love' is conditional on the state of your breasts and your humor. The loss of either/both would mean the loss of that 'conditional' love. It depends on the 'conditions'.

Empathy, love, and happiness are emotions, and an emotion cannot be a virtue, as virtues must be acted out voluntarily, just look at the difference between these and the other unconditional virtues you name, there is clearly a difference of voluntarism.
Some definitions; 'feelings' are 'thought/ego'.
'Emotions' are the physical manifestation of those perceived 'thought/feelings/ego. As the 'ego/thought' is conditional, so is all that exists therein!
For instance, 'happiness' of the ego is a conditional, relative, thing. A new ruby might make you feel good (a pseudo happiness), aka 'happy' (for a moment), but that moment passes, as does the ruby, as does the newness, as does the initial good feelings.
All conditional is temporal, illusion of thought.
'Morality', the (forbidden/egoic) judging of others as 'good' or 'evil' is conditional, of the ego.
'Ethics' is unconditional, of unconditional Love/Enlightenment;
'Ethics' is "Do not do to others what you don't want done to yourself!" It does not depend on conditions, but transcends all conditions, all limitations, all boundaries, all duality all space all time... etc... Is Universal, unconditional!
The unconditional can only be Known when experienced (like everything else)! It cannot be defined because words are limitations, lies, inherently dualistic, inherently conditional.
Get the idea?
Also, I do not see how humility leads to unconditional love.
I never said that it does, nor would I.
I did say that the state of unconditional Humility is a feature of unconditional Love! Mutually arising!
Humility is also harmful to the individual. A person who is humble has a low estimate of themselves.

Not so at all! Perhaps 'false humility', the Uriah Heeping routine, the wringing of hands and bowing of head as to APPEAR humble to others, usually with an agenda! All ego!
That is what humility encourages, lowering a person's estimate of themselves in relation to others. It is raising others above themselves, and it is obviously harmful. Why should anyone consider another above himself?
Actually, you still describe false humility of the ego, sly humility, broken harmful, hurtful, ego spew!
When you experience unconditional Love/Enlightenment, you will experience the dissolution of all boundaries, all limitations, all notions/thoughts of any autonomous 'I', no 'I' at all, but a Universal, unconditional, transcendental We!
An intelligent, Honest, Charitable, Happy... person has no trouble admitting not Knowing everything and Humility comes easy. There is no putting one person down and another up, that is all the schizophrenic duality of the ego!
The Wise never believe anything that they think or feel!
Also, the argument is easily made that honesty and faith are harmful to the individual.

And again I agree with you, but it is "conditional honesty" and "conditional 'faith'"!
Believing the ego is always ultimately harmful and = suffering!
Consider honesty, if a person were truly honest, they would come to be detested by everyone they met. They would always point out others flaws, and weaknesses, they would be cruel in their implacable honesty.

Yes! CONDITIONAL, egoic 'honesty'!
When you reread the Virtues that spontaneously arise with unconditional Love, you might notice that 'Honesty' in the company of Compassion and Sympathy and Empathy and Charity, etc... is very different than the conditional egoic toxin with which you are familiar.
Also, what makes virtues transcendental? What is it they are transcending?
I hope that somewhere in all those words, you might find that question answered. If not, I'd be happy to elucidate from other Perspectives.

Maxcady10001
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 » December 16th, 2017, 10:17 pm

I was not at all familiar with unconditional virtues. You're right there does not seem to be anything harmful in these unconditional virtues. I also understand how they could be transcendental. However, this is an idea that i'm afraid is unachievable, as everything is conditional. Love is conditional, faith is conditional, honesty is conditional, these are all conditional.
Might you be able to give a circumstances where they are not? All of the virtues you've named require some condition, and the idea of them being unconditional is not realistic. You could never love someone for without the condition of their being of some relation, or wife, or the way they look, or act. Loving anyone simply because they exist is not at all attainable (unless you find out they are the only other person on Earth, but that is conditional). This theory of unconditional virtuosity is not relevant because all possible virtuous behavior is conditional.

Namelesss
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Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Namelesss » December 16th, 2017, 11:01 pm

Maxcady10001 wrote:
December 16th, 2017, 10:17 pm
I was not at all familiar with unconditional virtues. You're right there does not seem to be anything harmful in these unconditional virtues. I also understand how they could be transcendental. However, this is an idea that i'm afraid is unachievable, as everything is conditional. Love is conditional, faith is conditional, honesty is conditional, these are all conditional.
I hear you saying 'unachievable' because you have yet to 'achieve/experience' it!
I'd say that you, like us all, predominately experience ego/thought/duality. When that is the totality of our experience, the ego doesn't even want to acknowledge the existence of the transcendental (as it transcends the delicate ego!)!
That is the default human position, at the moment.
More and more, though, people are awakening in the dream, and becoming unconditional Love/Enlightened.
Universal unconditional Love/Enlightenment is Our future! Only 2 centuries away!
We can start now! (Unconditional Love transcends all 'time' and 'space', all 'life' and 'death'!)

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

tat tvam asi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi)

Maxcady10001
Posts: 381
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 » December 16th, 2017, 11:26 pm

I asked for an example of anyone achieving unconditional virtuosity, and you say due to the human position it is impossible at the moment, so how is this relevant to the harm conditioned virtuosity inflicts on the individual now? What do you mean when you say people are experiencing unconditional love in dream states? Honestly, I checked out the link, and to be honest I try to stay away from the metaphysical. I don't understand how there can be any ultimate reality, that is not apparent in this reality, and I don't understand how there could be any primordial self. These things seem like a denial of our apparent reality, calling it false, and I don't see the use in such a thing.

Namelesss
Posts: 263
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Namelesss » December 17th, 2017, 12:50 am

Maxcady10001 wrote:
December 16th, 2017, 11:26 pm
I asked for an example of anyone achieving unconditional virtuosity, and you say due to the human position it is impossible at the moment,

Please don't put words in my mouth, I said no such thing!
I did say that it is uncommon to experience the transcendental.
That is a far cry from 'impossible'!
so how is this relevant to the harm conditioned virtuosity inflicts on the individual now?

It is the same relevance as having and using a crappy recipe to make meatloaf for all your life because you had no better recipe.
I am showing you the new recipe that results in the best meatloaf possible, ever, and you are arguing because you have become accustomed to the crap, and have yet to taste the new recipe!
A common response; "Been down so long it looks like up to me!"
What do you mean when you say people are experiencing unconditional love in dream states? Honestly, I checked out the link, and to be honest I try to stay away from the metaphysical.

To be honest, the metaphysical refers to ultimate Universal Reality. Some deal with the bigger pictures, others deal with how much cheese for the nachos. Between Us All, ALL is Known! We are Omni-!
It is all a 'dream', 'make-believe', to 'believe' is insanity.
Schizophrenia is the fragmentation of that which is One! That is what the ego/thoughts do!
I don't understand how there can be any ultimate reality, that is not apparent in this reality, and I don't understand how there could be any primordial self. These things seem like a denial of our apparent reality, calling it false, and I don't see the use in such a thing.
The pragmatic use is the difference between your crap meatloaf and the best.
It is not that unconditional Love/Enlightenment is necessarily 'useful', it is the ultimate state of being, the Universal state of Being!
There are many 'pragmatic' aspects of having practically unlimited access to information/Perspectives/Consciousness!

Namelesss
Posts: 263
Joined: November 15th, 2017, 1:59 am

Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Namelesss » December 17th, 2017, 12:54 am

I try to stay away from the metaphysical./quote]
Well, that is what this conversation is all about.
Perhaps I'll see you on another topic, but you can bet that I will be Ultimate Reality-ing (Universality) the hell out of it! *__-
Driving is always better when we have some clue how the car works! Same with Reality! *__-

Maxcady10001
Posts: 381
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 » December 17th, 2017, 1:16 am

I am not arguing for conditioned virtues, this is implied when you say " A common response; "Been down so long it looks like up to me!"" I have been arguing against conditioned (or all possible virtues) virtues the entire thread.
By between us all, do you mean bean everything that makes up the universe, known and unknown?
You say achieving unconditioned virtuosity is uncommon, but not impossible, yet it does defy human nature, to be unconditionally anything defies human nature. Everything people do is conditional. We are having a conversation, under the condition we are both reasonable. You say you are showing me the way to unconditional virtuosity, but you're also telling me I have to be more than a human being. This does not seem fair.
Also, you made this topic about the metaphysical by introducing unconditional virtues.

Maxcady10001
Posts: 381
Joined: September 12th, 2017, 6:03 pm

Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 » December 18th, 2017, 2:31 pm

Nameless
I have started a topic in the metaphysics section for discussing the impossibility of any ultimate reality.

Considering the harm in the individuals sacrifice for the species, the same relationship could be said of the relationship between the species and nature.

"The welfare of the individual is just as imaginary as the welfare of the species: the former is not sacrificed to the latter, species viewed from a distance is just as transient as the individual." (The Will to Power, pg.299)

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