The Definition of Power and how we should live

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Fooloso4
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Fooloso4 »

Max:
The point was that it is nothing to us if it cannot be experienced …
What has not be experienced is not the same as what cannot be experienced.
… and if it is said to exist outside of our experience it is transcendent.
We have discovered many things in the universe since the Hubble telescope. Obviously they can be experienced because they have been experienced, but they could not have been experienced if they did not already exist. They existed outside our experience but are objects within the natural world, not objects that transcend it.
Other natural categories?
As the context makes clear, the mental or conscious are considered by some dualists to be a fundamental category that is not transcendent.
Music cannot be defined as what is aesthetically pleasing, as that is far too subjective and personal to pass as a definition. It must be defined as various combinations of pitch and sound duration.
There is a difference between aesthetics as a subject of philosophy and what is pleasing. The point is not whether this is an adequate definition of music but whether a form of music is the whole of music, and this is only relevant because it served as an example of why a form of the will to power is not the whole of it.
Wouldn't this conception make time completely irrelevant?
Are you claiming that Nietzsche’s concept of time is completely irrelevant?
it is a logical consequence of infinite time
So why do you say this?
You have provided absolutely no evidence that eternal recurrence is the result of what we will.
Because the first statement explains eternal return as the consequence of infinite time, it says nothing about your claim that eternal recurrence is the result of what we will.
I have provided evidence the eternal recurrence could be what we will, as any point can be considered the beginning.
First, no point is the beginning but only a beginning, it is, however, for the same reason also an end. Second, if any point can be considered a beginning then there has been and always will be throughout the iterations of recurrence a time prior to man, just as there was a time prior to man during this iteration. Third, it does not follow from the claim that any point could be considered the beginning that any moment is willed or that if a moment is willed that it is willed to be eternally over and over again. Fourth, if eternal recurrence is willed then we can will that there be no eternal return. Saying yes to eternal recurrence, amor fati:
My formula for greatness in a human being is amor fati: that one wants nothing to be different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not merely bear what is necessary, still less conceal it—all idealism is mendacity in the face of what is necessary—but love it.
implies that not all love fate, that only the great will eternal recurrence and that eternal recurrence is a necessity. It can be opposed, born or accepted, or loved, that is to say, willed, but if it is a necessity it is regardless of whether man wills it to be as it is.
Maxcady10001
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Fooloso4
The point is not whether this is an adequate definition of music but whether a form of music is the whole of music
How have I not demonstrated a form of something is also the whole?
We have discovered many things in the universe since the Hubble telescope. Obviously they can be experienced because they have been experienced, but they could not have been experienced if they did not already exist. They existed outside our experience but are objects within the natural world, not objects that transcend it.
How are you able to conclude they existed if they could not be experienced?
mental or conscious are considered by some dualists to be a fundamental category that is not transcendent.
Yet not physical, which is what nature seems so far to be.
Because the first statement explains eternal return as the consequence of infinite time, it says nothing about your claim that eternal recurrence is the result of what we will.
When I said "wouldn't this conception make time completely irrelevant", I was referring to your post
Compare what Nietzsche says with the definition from Webster's. Nietzsche’s concept of time is circular and does not divide into a measured or measurable period, nor it is linear from past to present to future.
First, no point is the beginning but only a beginning
Exactly my point, it is completely arbitrary what is called the beginning or the end.

Why would you say this:
implies that not all love fate, that only the great will eternal recurrence and that eternal recurrence is a necessity. It can be opposed, born or accepted, or loved, that is to say, willed

Well if we consider, or if Nietzsche considered loved as synonymous with willed, we can indeed will the eternal recurrence.
Fooloso4
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Fooloso4 »

Max:
How have I not demonstrated a form of something is also the whole?
All that you have demonstrated is your failure to understand the concept of part and whole, an example and the thing it is an example of. I really have nothing more to say on this matter.
How are you able to conclude they existed if they could not be experienced?
Because they have not been experienced. They could not have been observed if they did not exist. What is it that was experienced when they were experienced? Something that did not exist? What does this have to do with the will to power? Do you imagine that they were willed into existence by a telescope?
Yet not physical, which is what nature seems so far to be.
That may be what it seems to be to you but not to those who see consciousness as a fundamental mode of the natural world. Once again, it doesn't matter if it is, it is an example of a non-transcendent metaphysical theory that holds that consciousness is natural but cannot be explained in physical terms.
When I said "wouldn't this conception make time completely irrelevant", I was referring to your post
I compared the dictionary definition you provided with the quote from Nietzsche you provided in order to show that the dictionary definition is inadequate for understanding Nietzsche’s concept of time.
Exactly my point, it is completely arbitrary what is called the beginning or the end.
If we are talking about human history and our experience in this iteration of the world, it is not completely arbitrary, it is relative. There was a time before man. Nietzsche does not deny history. He wrote extensively on it. he was writing about what was not what will be in this lifetime.
Why would you say this:
implies that not all love fate, that only the great will eternal recurrence and that eternal recurrence is a necessity. It can be opposed, born or accepted, or loved, that is to say, willed
If Nietzsche identifies amor fati as part of his formula for greatness, then either all men are great (which he denies) or not all men love fate, that is, not all men love or will eternal recurrence. Zarathustra talks about his own unwillingness to accept it. The quote from Nietzsche says that some bear it. To bear something not to will it.
Well if we consider, or if Nietzsche considered loved as synonymous with willed, we can indeed will the eternal recurrence.
Of course we can. The point is that he says that eternal recurrence is a matter of necessity. What is necessarily is not dependent on our willing it.
Maxcady10001
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Maxcady10001 »

All that you have demonstrated is your failure to understand the concept of part and whole, an example and the thing it is an example of. I really have nothing more to say on this matter.
Then why don't you refute what I've said using logic? Please explain how both music and jazz cannot both accurately be Various combinations of pitch and sound duration. If
Because they have not been experienced. They could not have been observed if they did not exist. What is it that was experienced when they were experienced? Something that did not exist? What does this have to do with the will to power? Do you imagine that they were willed into existence by a telescope?
And they cannot be said to exist if it cannot be observed, consider how past history is established. It is established through empirical observations that are made today. No one can logically say something definitively exists if it cannot be observed.


The entire point I was making is that we can will it or love it. Can you make the argument that no one can love fate?
Fooloso4
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Fooloso4 »

Max:
Then why don't you refute what I've said using logic?
I never heard jazz.
Jazz is music.
Therefore I never heard music.

I don’t eat brussel sprouts
Brussel sprouts are food
Therefore I do not eat food.

"And they cannot be said to exist if it cannot be observed ..."

My example was of things that have recently been discovered. They had not previously been observed but now they have. Before they were observed we could not say they existed but now that the have been observed we can confirm that they exist. Most people will say that we now know they existed even before they were observed.
Fooloso4
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Fooloso4 »

Max:
The entire point I was making is that we can will it or love it. Can you make the argument that no one can love fate?
That is not the entire point you were making. You claimed that eternal recurrent is caused by human will. It is not a question of whether anyone can love fate, but of whether that love, to will fate, is the cause of fate. It is not. Fate is, according to Nietzsche, a matter of necessity not love or will.
Belindi
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Belindi »

Maxcady10001 wrote: January 21st, 2018, 10:12 pm Belindi

Where do weigh in on jazz being music and music being jazz?
I suppose that what is jazz is defined in some way by professional or academic musicians but I guess the would all without question say that jazz is music.
I'd say that natural sounds, sirens, and smoke monitor screeches are not music which is an assemblage of sounds deliberately ordered by humans so as to sound beautiful.

Some people have electric door chimes music : others have mobile phone music: then there is the despised musak. Such as those are despised by musicians as travesties of real music and nastily parasitic upon real music.

Commercial pop music is despised by some and not granted the honour of being named as music.However it's false to identify the commercial element as the cause of false 'music' , as some revered classical musicians composed to order for a rich client , or to fit with a church's requirements. Then there is Soviet era music which chimed with the politics of the time and place, and some of this art work is good by any standards. I think this shows that any art form that tells truth or aims to tell truth is worthy of an honoured name such as 'music'.

Modern commercial pop music generally is music which is pimped by commercial interests and fails to tell any truth except perhaps simple violence, simple sexual lust and longing, and simplistic sentimentality. It's a form that is made and sold to the requirements of those who have not learned other more truthful idioms such as classical jazz , original folk, or Renaissance classical.
Maxcady10001
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Ok, I think I understand The Will to Power and the part and whole now, and where I was mistaken.
Dlaw
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Dlaw »

Ok, here's the thing: we KNOW what creates the force and motion and growth of life: ATP. (Let's not quibble over molecules, please, let ATP stand in for the other energy-transferring phosphates).

So there's no question, no mystery and no doubt what the "mysterious motive force" of life is: ATP.

Now find me a definition of Will To Power that doesn't include ATP. In other words, starting with ATP, the obvious, how is the energy then guided by "Will To Power" and not just evolution?
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Freudian Monkey
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Freudian Monkey »

I'm happy to see such enthusiastic conversations on this thread. Thank you so much for everyone for giving their contributions for the betterment of our understanding of the concept of Power.

Belindi:

I want to comment briefly something I heard today in a seminar on national school curriculum and legal framework in teacher's profession. I learned something really interesting I want to share here.

During the seminar we went through different historical periods in Finnish primary school education. In 1970s everything related to teaching was extremelly carefully regulated in Finland: everything you were supposed to teach during a semester was written in the national school curriculum. There was no room for improvisation, everything had to be done according to the national standards - everything had to be taught directly from books approved by ministry of education. There were even national curriculum inspectors that visited schools to make sure that all teaching was done according to the national standards. In 1994 however teaching philosophy changed from behaviorism to constructive approach. The national curriculum was changed to reflect this new approach and everything changed basically over night. Almost all the regulation was removed and teachers were encourage to experiment and come up with their own didactic methods and study materials. It was believed that this pedagogical freedom would encourage teachers to create more motivating and inspiring environment for the students. And in some places it did, but there's a catch. Only some of the school benefited from this change. In other school this new lack of standards lead to sloppy teaching practices. Almost immediately after the 1994 it was apparent that the national quality of teaching and study results started the become more uneven. Alarmed by this development, the Finnish board of Education made numerous enhancements to the national curriculum in 2004 and further enhancements on 2014 to more teaching further to a more regulated and standardized direction. Today it's still not as heavily regulated as it used to be in 1970, but gone are the years of "freedom" in Finnish institutes of education.

Based on these observations, it seems that the more freedom we give to our teaching staff, the more unequal our schools will become. Also, the more heavily we regulate our national school curriculums, the more equal are the students across the nation. This was a surprising discovery for me, although it makes sense. The radical nature of the change probably also contributed to the decline in quality of teaching, but after two decades academics have concluded that a more regulated school curriculum gives students the best equality of opportunity.

In today's society there's no mantras more powerful than freedom and equality. But what about if we have to choose one over the other? Do we need to restrict our teachers and limit their capabilities in order to offer equal opportunity for our students?
Belindi
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Belindi »

That is an interesting dichotomy, Freudian Monkey. I am faithful to the liberal way of teaching because I'd classify standards -centred education as 'training'. I'm not opposed to training, quite the opposite and I even see training to certain standards as having a rightful place not only in physical education but also in academia.

Liberal, child centred, teaching which is based upon relationship between teacher and pupil is not easy but more difficult than standards- based training. Liberal education requires a teacher who is thoroughly familiar with and skilled in uses of language. In your education studies did you learn the theory of linguistic codes as explained by Basil Bernstein? The liberal teacher needs to be able to respect and teach within both of those codes. The liberal teacher needs to be able also to make explicit and lucid in language the child's early practical experience in maths and science, and so has to be a clear and imaginative speaker himself. Liberal teaching methods are no excuse for sloppiness, rather liberal methods require a better educated and more intelligent teacher.
Is it possible for there to be standards whilst the teacher's language is suited to the child's mind and progress? And cannot the standards be applied more to teacher education and less to the child's attainment?

I see the transference of power from adults to the rising generation as transference of ability to create the new besides understanding the best of the old.
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Freudian Monkey
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Freudian Monkey »

Belindi:

By the way, make sure to watch Bernie Sanders' Town Hall on Medicare for All. Based on your posts here I figured you might be interested. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lezXTpEFzJ8

I will reply to your post a bit later. I have a birthday today, so I probably won't have time to write a lengthy reply today.
Maxcady10001
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Happy Birthday!
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Freudian Monkey
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Freudian Monkey »

Maxcady10001 wrote: Happy Birthday!
Thank you!
Belindi wrote: January 24th, 2018, 4:51 am That is an interesting dichotomy, Freudian Monkey. I am faithful to the liberal way of teaching because I'd classify standards -centred education as 'training'. I'm not opposed to training, quite the opposite and I even see training to certain standards as having a rightful place not only in physical education but also in academia.

Liberal, child centred, teaching which is based upon relationship between teacher and pupil is not easy but more difficult than standards- based training. Liberal education requires a teacher who is thoroughly familiar with and skilled in uses of language. In your education studies did you learn the theory of linguistic codes as explained by Basil Bernstein? The liberal teacher needs to be able to respect and teach within both of those codes. The liberal teacher needs to be able also to make explicit and lucid in language the child's early practical experience in maths and science, and so has to be a clear and imaginative speaker himself. Liberal teaching methods are no excuse for sloppiness, rather liberal methods require a better educated and more intelligent teacher.
Is it possible for there to be standards whilst the teacher's language is suited to the child's mind and progress? And cannot the standards be applied more to teacher education and less to the child's attainment?

I see the transference of power from adults to the rising generation as transference of ability to create the new besides understanding the best of the old.
I haven't heard about Basil Bernstein before, perhaps his thoughts will be introduced later during a Spring pedagogy course I'm taking. His concept of pedagogy seems to draw from the long tradition of educators like John Dewey who stress the applicability of knowledge and the importance of experimentation in education instead of a the traditional view of transference of knowledge from teacher to a student. It also seems to be highly compatible to Bloom's taxonomy, which is stressed a lot in Finnish pedagogy education and student evaluation. I looked through a short video about Bernstein, but I'm still not quite sure how he sees the role of a teacher's use of language in education. Does it primarily deal with how the teacher approaches the correction of errors in students answers or is there something more to it?

By the way Belindi, do you work yourself in education? If so, I'm curious to hear if you're familiar with the concept of transversal competence? It seems to be the mantra chanted in Finnish universities at the moment.



Just a note for people new to this thread - we are still talking about the concept of Power. We are merely exploring social power structures, such as national institutes of education.
Belindi
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Belindi »

Freudian Monkey I did initial teacher training during 1970s but cannot remember much about it, except that it was intended to be very 'child-centred'. I feel that I learned more from a couple of undergraduate education modules, which is where I learned about Basil Bernstein's theory of linguistic codes. The theory is indeed very practical, as it is sociolinguistics. The so-called "restricted code" is unconsciously aimed at group solidarity , and so it may tend to be under- rated by educationists; however it's the restricted code from which poetry and novels come.

The so-called "elaborated" code is what is usually required of school children as far as I know(although I have no up to date experience at all).The propositions in this way of speaking relate to accepted categories.

E.g. Guns.

Restricted code : This cowboy was on his horse galloping and firing his gun.

My uncle had a gun from the war.


Elaborated code: A gun is a weapon.

Guns should be (or not be) widely available.


I suppose that we should all be able to speak in either code according to the social situation. Obviously these forums are heavily into elaborated code, even the preachers do elaborated code.

The other educationists whom you mention, except for Dewey,are I am sorry to say unknown to me. I am quite old and maybe behind the times. I will try to look them up.
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