The Definition of Power and how we should live

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Belindi
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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Belindi » January 14th, 2018, 4:19 pm

Dlaw, it seems obvious to me that the US needs higher taxation and welfare state to fund the education of as many as possible of its future citizens. Do you agree?

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Dlaw » January 14th, 2018, 4:36 pm

Belindi wrote:
January 14th, 2018, 4:19 pm
Dlaw, it seems obvious to me that the US needs higher taxation and welfare state to fund the education of as many as possible of its future citizens. Do you agree?
Oh, vastly more money but not necessarily through taxation. PM me and I'll explain (simple explanation, not a newsletter or thesis, but I don't want to derail the thread.)

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Belindi » January 15th, 2018, 5:48 am

Dlaw, could you, on the public forum, not relate means of raising funds to who wields power? I request this because who wields power is intimately related to how we should live.

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Freudian Monkey » January 15th, 2018, 7:56 am

Belindi wrote:
January 14th, 2018, 3:54 pm

I don't know about the US education system but that in the UK is traditionally imbued with social class differences, and the present Conservative government is trying to privatise both education and health.
This is what has been happening in Finland as well actually. Teaching is not been privatized, but healthcare is going further and further that road. We also currently have a right-wing heavy government.

But just like in the US there's Bernie Sanders, in the UK you have people like Jeremy Corbyn.
Belindi wrote:
January 14th, 2018, 3:54 pm
I don't know about distributions of social classes in Finland, and would like to know more. I do notice that in one rural part of England where working class and more affluent children are geographically mixed the selected Grammar school children included a comparatively high proportion of working class children. By contrast in a town in the south of England where the population is predominantly affluent the selected Grammar school children include practically no working class children. My point is that the local demographic makes a difference to mal-effects of segregation, and in a mixed community the selection will not be so harmful. This again reflects upon the advantage to society as a whole and to individuals when there is a welfare state in which the class differential is diminished.
I agree that in UK the problem you describe can be a more pressing issue. I had an opportunity to come do post graduate studies in the University of Liverpool with a full scholarship, but I wanted to start working as a teacher instead of pursuit a career of a researcher, so I turned it down. But I happened to check the tuition fees while I was considering coming there. I was shocked. How can anyone afford such absurd tuition fees? I think they were approximately 20 000 £ per semester.
Belindi wrote:
January 14th, 2018, 3:54 pm
I don't know how fee-paying schools are not a problem in Finland, despite the very high quality of your state schools. Human nature being as it is, would advantaged parents not pay for their children to get even better schooling than the non-fee-paying state sector? If Finnish state schools are of very high quality, why would any parent pay choose to pay school fees?
I think private schools is a status symbol and a way for rich parents to make sure their children interact with children of similar social status. But I don't think there's significant advantage to having gone to such school while applying for a job in Finland. Finns don't have a sense of social class the way people do in the UK. We've never had royalty or even any particularly wealthy families. The only "elite" group of people you could perhaps single out are the Finnish Swedes, who have disproportional amount to positions of power compared to "regular" Finns and who often go to separate schools since their first language is Swedish instead of Finnish. So they tend to stick together more and look after the interests of their social collective.

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Dlaw » January 15th, 2018, 1:15 pm

Belindi wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 5:48 am
Dlaw, could you, on the public forum, not relate means of raising funds to who wields power? I request this because who wields power is intimately related to how we should live.
Well there we get into the wonderful (I find it so) topic of MONEY!!!

Money, the New Calvinist measure of virtue!

Money really is power - or it's a close-enough correlate to use in analysis.

So where does money come from? Is it a force of Nature?

I think not. Human construct.

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Maxcady10001 » January 15th, 2018, 1:21 pm

Dlaw wrote: Money, the New Calvinist measure of virtue!
Why do you mention calvinism in all of your posts? How does calvinism relate to money? Also, calvinism cannot have a measure of virtue, because of the calvinist doctrine of predestination. Virtue does not at all matter in calvinism so why would it be measured?

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Dlaw » January 15th, 2018, 2:11 pm

Maxcady10001 wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 1:21 pm
Dlaw wrote: Money, the New Calvinist measure of virtue!
Why do you mention calvinism in all of your posts? How does calvinism relate to money? Also, calvinism cannot have a measure of virtue, because of the calvinist doctrine of predestination. Virtue does not at all matter in calvinism so why would it be measured?
Well, obviously Calvinism is my personal bete noir at the moment. I go through phases when I'm trying to think through certain ideas.

Calvinism is a very, very strong influence in American society, starting with the Puritans. The American notion of "Meritocracy" is very much a Calvinist idea that has been with us since the 17th century.

Interestingly, many Calvinists became part of the Abolition movement. But to be cynical, this was after slavery had created the economy they could then dominate as mystically merit-chosen capitalists.

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Belindi » January 15th, 2018, 5:15 pm

Freudian Monkey, in the UK university student loans are repaid pro rata when the student starts earning over a certain amount per year.
I think that also in the UK private schools , especially the so-called 'public schools', are a status symbol for many parents. Others are more motivated to pay fees because the catchment area of their local school contains many non-English speakers, or some other undesirable trait such as criminality, or extreme right wing bias. Teachers generally do a great job teaching in those difficult catchment areas especially when also up against government restrictions and paper work.

Why little social class bias in Scandinavia? Could this be because Scandinavia never had industrial revolution on the scale of the UK with consequent labour relations as they were in this country and still survive to a significant extent? Is the demographic in Finland such that rich and poor socialise together and live in mixed communities?

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Belindi » January 15th, 2018, 5:17 pm

Dlaw wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 2:11 pm
Maxcady10001 wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 1:21 pm


Why do you mention calvinism in all of your posts? How does calvinism relate to money? Also, calvinism cannot have a measure of virtue, because of the calvinist doctrine of predestination. Virtue does not at all matter in calvinism so why would it be measured?
Well, obviously Calvinism is my personal bete noir at the moment. I go through phases when I'm trying to think through certain ideas.

Calvinism is a very, very strong influence in American society, starting with the Puritans. The American notion of "Meritocracy" is very much a Calvinist idea that has been with us since the 17th century.

Interestingly, many Calvinists became part of the Abolition movement. But to be cynical, this was after slavery had created the economy they could then dominate as mystically merit-chosen capitalists.
Regarding Calvinism, can I guess that being rich indicates that God must love you? Virtue can't empower a Calvinist because God has already even before the little Calvinist is born predestined him to his fate.The religious coloration superimposed upon determinism is peculiarly nasty. I am not a fan of Free Will, but it's better than predestination.

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Maxcady10001 » January 15th, 2018, 5:27 pm

how is a meritocracy a calvinist idea, when they don't even believe their god operates in such a way? it"s completely contradictory to say meritocracy is a calvinist idea, when merit has no meaning in calvinism due to the unconditional elect, and i hope you are not insinuating the idea of a meritocracy originated with the calvinists, as it certainly did not, a quick google search will bring you to the work of Confucius.

also, you did not respond to an earlier post i made as a response to your earlier post, regarding the "not even false" argument. What is that argument?
Dlaw wrote: I'd say Nietzsche is just locating the common religious concept (fantasy) of "eternal life" outside the human and calling it a "force of Nature". Everything about Nietzsche would still make sense if you substituted the word "God" for the word "Nature". Nietzsche's philosophy is an affirmation of life in the opinion of Nietzsche, but I think it's simply social Darwinism, which has a strong affinity for deadly violence.
I responded with
maxcady10001 wrote:How does he locate anything outside of the human or outside of nature? Are humans not organic life? Do we not grow and become as other organic life does? He locates nothing outside of the human experience. A human goes from one stage in life to the next just as all other organic matter, humans are babies, then adults, then they are old and then they die and decompose, and become part of the atmosphere and soil until it is life again, it is an endless process of growth and becoming.

What in Nietzsche's doctrine is outside of the human experience, outside of nature, there is nothing metaphysical there. And you cannot replace nature with god in Nietzsche's philosophy, because the principle of god is a metaphysical one. Nature is not a metaphysical principle like god.

Also, Nietzsche did not believe in social darwinism the way you are applying his ideas, he did not believe the "fittest" survived, instead only the abundant and the mediocre survive, and that great individuals were rare.
Dlaw wrote: You'll note that Dostoevsky is post-Reformation. There has been and still is an enormous effort to re-invigorate the otherwise moribund Orthodox theology with Protestant ideas. Dostoevsky is one example. Aleksander Dugin is another - an avowed Nietzschean.


So what? How many other philosophers and authors throughout all of history has spoken about greatness? And as I said most of them have not been calvinist.
Dlaw wrote: The "Master Race" concept is similarly absurd and based on nothing but fantasy. The "rewards" of this notion are self-destruction and alienation, yet it clearly has its appeal.
Do you not believe some men are greater than others?

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Dlaw » January 15th, 2018, 5:35 pm

Belindi wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 5:17 pm

Regarding Calvinism, can I guess that being rich indicates that God must love you? Virtue can't empower a Calvinist because God has already even before the little Calvinist is born predestined him to his fate.The religious coloration superimposed upon determinism is peculiarly nasty. I am not a fan of Free Will, but it's better than predestination.
Of course. Calvinism was basically invented to make the argument that the new middle class - churchmen and laity - deserved a higher status in society than aristocrats and the Church hierarchy.

Money was clearly a distinguishing factor there.

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Belindi » January 15th, 2018, 7:12 pm

Dlaw wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 5:35 pm
Belindi wrote:
January 15th, 2018, 5:17 pm

Regarding Calvinism, can I guess that being rich indicates that God must love you? Virtue can't empower a Calvinist because God has already even before the little Calvinist is born predestined him to his fate.The religious coloration superimposed upon determinism is peculiarly nasty. I am not a fan of Free Will, but it's better than predestination.
Of course. Calvinism was basically invented to make the argument that the new middle class - churchmen and laity - deserved a higher status in society than aristocrats and the Church hierarchy.

Money was clearly a distinguishing factor there.
Is your claim an instance of how each and every successful institution in a society is a necessary part of the whole power structure?
philosopher Simon Blackburn, structuralism is "the belief that phenomena of human life are not intelligible except through their interrelations. These relations constitute a structure, and behind local variations in the surface phenomena there are constant laws of abstract culture".[1]


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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Freudian Monkey » January 17th, 2018, 2:32 pm

I've noticed something interesting while being around an old land lady who's dementia is getting worse every day. The worse her memory gets, the more she clings to all her possessions. Some days she does nothing else but walk around her house and makes sure that everything is in the right place. I understand that this kind of behavior is tied to her sense of security and that gradually losing one's memory can cause tremendous feeling of insecurity, and making sure everything is in place is a way of making sure that you're not insane and that everything is as it should be. However I can't help but feel that this kind of behavior also tells something about our relationship with Power.

Power has everything to do with being in control. When dementia is gradually degenerating one's memory, this takes away a very essential and fundamental form of control that we always take for granted. When we notice our memory fading and that we're losing control, we cling to all the other power sources we have in order to compensate that loss of power. Many old people cling to their children for support. Many cling to their material possessions, no matter how insignificant. Many turn to God in their old age for the ultimate (imaginary) power source and to gain a support network among believers.

The loss of Power is always frightening, but we all need to get used to it sooner or later.

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Dlaw » January 17th, 2018, 2:37 pm

Freudian Monkey wrote:
January 17th, 2018, 2:32 pm
I've noticed something interesting while being around an old land lady who's dementia is getting worse every day. The worse her memory gets, the more she clings to all her possessions. Some days she does nothing else but walk around her house and makes sure that everything is in the right place. I understand that this kind of behavior is tied to her sense of security and that gradually losing one's memory can cause tremendous feeling of insecurity, and making sure everything is in place is a way of making sure that you're not insane and that everything is as it should be. However I can't help but feel that this kind of behavior also tells something about our relationship with Power.

Power has everything to do with being in control. When dementia is gradually degenerating one's memory, this takes away a very essential and fundamental form of control that we always take for granted. When we notice our memory fading and that we're losing control, we cling to all the other power sources we have in order to compensate that loss of power. Many old people cling to their children for support. Many cling to their material possessions, no matter how insignificant. Many turn to God in their old age for the ultimate (imaginary) power source and to gain a support network among believers.

The loss of Power is always frightening, but we all need to get used to it sooner or later.
Well, isn't it easier just to decide that Power is an illusion and all these ways we have of chasing this chimera are ultimately futile?

I still don't get how this concept of Power helps anybody but parasites. If I'm a pimp, I need the illusion of Power, very badly. If I'm a computer programmer, not so much.

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Re: The Definition of Power and how we should live

Post by Maxcady10001 » January 17th, 2018, 3:28 pm

Dlaw

You still don't understand the concept of power being discussed, and you have not responded to my previous post. Why are you not responding to posts? Power is described in this thread as growth, not what a pimp needs.

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