Down syndrome and abortion

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Littlemoon
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Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Littlemoon »

Hey guys. So I recently read about finland and down syndrome and apparently the women there almost 100% will go for abortion if down syndrome is detected.
So my question is, do you think it's ethical for a women to abort if the fetus has down syndrome or should still carry out the pregnancy?
I am just interested in knowing what's everyone's opinion and maybe carry a discussion about this.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Sy Borg »

I see abortion as ethical anyway, certainly no less ethical than the killing of sentient adult animals with relationships for food. So I have no problem with this.
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LuckyR
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by LuckyR »

The OP (abortion in specific circumstances) cannot be discussed without knowing the attitude on abortion of a normal pregnancy. For example, if someone is ok with abortion on demand, then it is illogical for that individual to have a problem with abortion for a specific reason. OTOH if someone is against abortion on demand, then they could logically be either for or against abortion in specific circumstances, depending on various factors.
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Steve3007 »

I have no particular problem with early-stage abortion in these circumstances.

My own children were conceived using IVF and that process means re-implanting more than one embryo in the womb to increase the likelihood of one of them reaching full term. For our eldest, two embryos were re-implanted (we called them Ren and Stimpy) but only one (Stimpy) survived. We didn't call him Stimpy after he was born. We gave him a more normal name.

We sometimes talk about Ren when discussing the whole thing, but there is no sense in which any of us think of Ren as a human being who died. We talk about him/her in the same way that you might talk about any other imaginary human being who never turned into a real human being in this universe. He/she didn't miss out on anything because he/she hadn't yet reached the stage when he/she knew there was anything to miss out on.

In short: life is strange.
Ecurb
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Ecurb »

LuckyR wrote: December 19th, 2017, 4:55 am The OP (abortion in specific circumstances) cannot be discussed without knowing the attitude on abortion of a normal pregnancy. For example, if someone is ok with abortion on demand, then it is illogical for that individual to have a problem with abortion for a specific reason. OTOH if someone is against abortion on demand, then they could logically be either for or against abortion in specific circumstances, depending on various factors.
I don't buy this. Why is it "illogical" to support the legality of abortion, but object to certain forms of eugenics? That's like saying, "If someone supports the notion of freedom of speech, it is illogical for them to object to the "N" word." I may not want to throw someone in prison for using that word, but that doesn't mean I can't think he's rude, insensitive and hateful.

It's perfectly reasonable to support a woman's right to choose and abortion, but find certain reasons for the choice morally repugnant. How about aborting female fetuses, because the mother wants only boys (as was supposedly common in China)? Must any supporter of abortion rights find this morally acceptable?

It is reasonable to support a woman's right to make choices about her own body, but to find the particular choices she makes morally (although not legally) repugnant.

I have no clear opinion on the Down's Syndrome question, though. I would certainly support the legal right to choose abortion, but I'm uncertain as to my moral position on it (or eugenics in general).
Steve3007
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Steve3007 »

Ecurb wrote:I would certainly support the legal right to choose abortion,...
Do you have a view as to any possible gestational time limit for the right to have an abortion?
Ecurb wrote:...but I'm uncertain as to my moral position on it (or eugenics in general).
I wouldn't necessarily class abortion for this kind of reason as an example of eugenics. Eugenics (as I understand it) is an attempt to alter the general characteristics of the gene pool by selective breeding. This isn't necessarily the motive when aborting a foetus with an abnormality. I doubt whether the long term health of the human genome is much of a factor in individual parents' decisions.
Ecurb
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Ecurb »

Good point. I was misusing the word "eugenics". As I understand it (which is not very well), Downs syndrome is not inherited genetically. The example of choosing abortion based on the sex of the fetus is based on genetics, but might not constitute "eugenics" because the genes involved are not passed on (men can beget girls).

As far as gestational limits, whatever limit we decide on constitutes an artificial and somewhat arbitrary line. I don't even know where the line is drawn now. Viability? (Of course as medical technology improves, the age of viability gets younger and younger.)

I support a woman's right to decide to terminate a pregnancy in which the fetus is known to have major health problems. On the other hand, I can see the point made by some parents of Downs Syndrome children that making the decision to abort devalues those living with Downs Syndrome and over values the importance of "normal" mental functioning. Becoming a parent is a frightening responsibility, even without the specter of disability. However (as most parents know) our fears are often unfounded, and the rewards make the responsibility worthwhile. My own son is (naturally) brilliant, but I'm confident that many parents of Downs Syndrome children find their experience rewarding, however fearful they were on hearing the diagnosis.
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Hereandnow
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Hereandnow »

Littlemoon:
Hey guys. So I recently read about finland and down syndrome and apparently the women there almost 100% will go for abortion if down syndrome is detected.
So my question is, do you think it's ethical for a women to abort if the fetus has down syndrome or should still carry out the pregnancy?
I am just interested in knowing what's everyone's opinion and maybe carry a discussion about this.
Regarding abortion, euthanasia, capital punishment and the like, they deal with how we think, and how we feel about the value of a human life and the way modern problems arise around this. If you remove the metaphysics of personhood altogether, you are still not out of hot water. You might think you are since the issue of offending god would be out the window, but know. Removing the religious consequences just puts the matter in a different moral framework. We still are worried. We are worried about the dignity of being a person. Go down that golden path of pure pragmatics, and you find unwelcome things, like eugenics, like public executions and other possible future slippery slope worlds where people are taken up as commodities or utilities.
Having said that, no, I don't believe anyone should bring a terribly afflicted child into the world if it can be avoided. But then, I do worry the closer the abortion is done to late term. Some slippery slopes should be taken seriously.
Littlemoon
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Littlemoon »

Nice! Didn't think I'd be having so many replies!

So about the study, in Finland nearly 100% of the women will opt to terminate the pregnancy is detected. The goal is to eliminate the disease completely which is questionable since you wouldn't be eliminating any disease but rather stopping the disease from manifesting.
For those you don't know how Down Syndrome happens, here's a quick scientific view on this aspect:

Most cases of Down syndrome result from trisomy 21, which means each cell in the body has three copies of chromosome 21 instead of the usual two copies.
Most cases of Down syndrome are not inherited. When the condition is caused by trisomy 21, the chromosomal abnormality occurs as a random event during the formation of reproductive cells in a parent. The abnormality usually occurs in egg cells, but it occasionally occurs in sperm cells. An error in cell division called nondisjunction results in a reproductive cell with an abnormal number of chromosomes. For example, an egg or sperm cell may gain an extra copy of chromosome 21. If one of these atypical reproductive cells contributes to the genetic makeup of a child, the child will have an extra chromosome 21 in each of the body's cells.

I think this isn't selfish for the parents to opt not to chose to carry out this pregnancy (Some call these people selfish). It is important that, when debating abortion, it doesn't necessarily mean one person is against life. Being pro life means also to accept the suffering of others and support these people if they chose to terminate their suffering.

Also about the abortion limits, when does a fetus become a person? There is great debate about this an in the medical community there isnt a consensus yet.
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Hereandnow
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Hereandnow »

When does a fetus become a person? The jury is out on this. And it will be out as long as 'person' is not definitively defined, at most; at least until public sentiment moves one way or another. The "truth" on this matter is not discovered; it is made.
Ecurb
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Ecurb »

One danger is that individuals with Downs Syndrome will not be granted full "personhood".

Also, re. the goal of "eliminat(ing) the disease", if we abort all pregnancies, we would eliminate all diseases (in a couple of generations). Human suffering would be at an end! But so would human joy.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Sy Borg »

I think we need to be careful not to confer what are effectively primitive, largely insensate beings with full personhood, beings that are vastly less feeling and aware than the animals we eat without the slightest twinge of conscience. These animals form loving bonds within their herds, and then they are simply pulled away and killed and et. Meanwhile, the being inside is not a full being yet, let alone person.

The being obviously deserves rights but let's not pretend there is a fully aware "soul" in there in distress, when aborted, certainly not in the first trimester. The death of any creature, little or small, is pretty awful business but we accept that this is part of life, part of what it means to live and thrive as an adult.

However, a fully grown being, Downes Syndrome or not, will have rights insofar as a person can claim them. Rights mean little if you don't know how to invoke or claim them.
Ecurb
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Ecurb »

Greta wrote: December 19th, 2017, 8:36 pm I think we need to be careful not to confer what are effectively primitive, largely insensate beings with full personhood....
For a second, I though you were going to deny "full personhood" to the mentally handicapped -- like those with Down Syndrome. As it turns out, that is not your point -- but using intelligence or the ability to love as a criterion for personhood suggests that many handicapped "people" could be denied full human rights. I conclude,then, that it's a bad way to decide how to confer "personhood".

One difference between a person and a fetus (even when the "person" has limited mental development) is that once he is born, the person becomes a member of society. Bonds of affection and responsibility tie him to other members of society (his parents, for example) and infringing on his rights infringes on their rights and responsibilities. To use your analogy about animals, many people might eat pigs, but not dogs. Pet dogs have relationships with humans that most pigs do not have (apologies to Wilbur), so we confer a status to them that we do not confer to pigs (even though pigs are just as intelligent as dogs).

If, on the other hand, we decide that human rights are applicable only to those with certain mental capabilities, we must draw an arbitrary line somewhere. Should we kill off everyone with an IQ under 50? How about 75? How about 120?

Being human is a birth right (and, of course, fetuses have not been born).
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Sy Borg
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Sy Borg »

Ecurb wrote: December 20th, 2017, 12:09 pm
Greta wrote: December 19th, 2017, 8:36 pm I think we need to be careful not to confer what are effectively primitive, largely insensate beings with full personhood....
For a second, I though you were going to deny "full personhood" to the mentally handicapped -- like those with Down Syndrome. As it turns out, that is not your point -- but using intelligence or the ability to love as a criterion for personhood suggests that many handicapped "people" could be denied full human rights. I conclude,then, that it's a bad way to decide how to confer "personhood".
Note the emphasis - what you critiqued is not what I said. Also, humans far less superior to other mammals than our biased view supposes, but we happily kill and eat them without the slightest problem, usually not even a hint of a thought about the animal killed for their sustenance. It would be nice to see more consistency in this area.
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Scribbler60
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Scribbler60 »

As agonizing as this must be for the parents involved, fact is that abortion is no longer a moral or ethical matter; it's not even a legal one, and it's certainly not a religious one. The argument is already over.

You'll find that the vast majority of people who are vehemently opposed to abortion are opposed on religious grounds. Now, given that religion is, in itself, based on mischaracterizations and outright falsehoods, that argument no longer exists - or, in my view, at least it shouldn't, because religion has no basis in fact.

It would be as if abortions were being opposed by hordes of astrologers. Or homeopaths. Sure, they can have opinions, but they are just opinions and have no factual grounding.

No, the whole abortion question is simply a very personal one. The legal determinants are already settled, and the religious objections have no standing. Personally, I'd have a hard time having milady carry a child to term if we knew in advance that the child would suffer, whether it's through Down's or physical impairment.

That said, I completely respect and honour those who, knowing that in advance, make a different choice, and would support them in that choice.
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