Down syndrome and abortion

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LuckyR
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by LuckyR »

Ecurb wrote: December 19th, 2017, 10:28 am
LuckyR wrote: December 19th, 2017, 4:55 am The OP (abortion in specific circumstances) cannot be discussed without knowing the attitude on abortion of a normal pregnancy. For example, if someone is ok with abortion on demand, then it is illogical for that individual to have a problem with abortion for a specific reason. OTOH if someone is against abortion on demand, then they could logically be either for or against abortion in specific circumstances, depending on various factors.
I don't buy this. Why is it "illogical" to support the legality of abortion, but object to certain forms of eugenics? That's like saying, "If someone supports the notion of freedom of speech, it is illogical for them to object to the "N" word." I may not want to throw someone in prison for using that word, but that doesn't mean I can't think he's rude, insensitive and hateful.

It's perfectly reasonable to support a woman's right to choose and abortion, but find certain reasons for the choice morally repugnant. How about aborting female fetuses, because the mother wants only boys (as was supposedly common in China)? Must any supporter of abortion rights find this morally acceptable?

It is reasonable to support a woman's right to make choices about her own body, but to find the particular choices she makes morally (although not legally) repugnant.

I have no clear opinion on the Down's Syndrome question, though. I would certainly support the legal right to choose abortion, but I'm uncertain as to my moral position on it (or eugenics in general).
Actually (if we believe what you are posting, which I do) you do "buy this". Your trying to parse differences between supporting the legality of abortion on demand with voicing a non-binding moral objection to this or that use of your previously stated "support" for the same legal entity, is entertaining to watch but brings little to no objective logic to the table.

Here's a stirring of the pot to see which supporters are real and which are fake: in the deaf community it is not unheard of for parents (who are deaf) to seek genetic testing to predict if their children will have deafness, and abort the fetuses who would have been born hearing. Thoughts?
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Ecurb »

Greta wrote: December 20th, 2017, 4:52 pm
Note the emphasis - what you critiqued is not what I said. Also, humans far less superior to other mammals than our biased view supposes, but we happily kill and eat them without the slightest problem, usually not even a hint of a thought about the animal killed for their sustenance. It would be nice to see more consistency in this area.
Why do you find the standard position inconsistent? As I said earlier, our favoring of humans (our own species) over non-human animals probably has little to do with relative intelligence or relative emotional capacity. If it did, we could eat the Down Syndrome children. You seem to assume that we favor humans because they are smarter and more feeling than non-humans (or, at least, because we think they are). I don't think that's the reason. We support our own children more than we support those of other parents -- and it has nothing to do with their inherent superiority. I imagine some people would refrain from eating apes, or monkeys, not necessarily because of their intelligence, but because they look like humans and act like humans. There's nothing "inconsistent" about this, although, of course, it's reasonable to question whether favoring some animals over others based on a closer genetic relationship is a sound basis for a moral decision.
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Ecurb »

LuckyR wrote: December 21st, 2017, 3:45 am

Actually (if we believe what you are posting, which I do) you do "buy this". Your trying to parse differences between supporting the legality of abortion on demand with voicing a non-binding moral objection to this or that use of your previously stated "support" for the same legal entity, is entertaining to watch but brings little to no objective logic to the table.

Here's a stirring of the pot to see which supporters are real and which are fake: in the deaf community it is not unheard of for parents (who are deaf) to seek genetic testing to predict if their children will have deafness, and abort the fetuses who would have been born hearing. Thoughts?
I'm sure all of us agree that some behaviors that are immoral should not be made illegal, and some that are illegal are not immoral. Why discussing the morality of behaviors that are (properly) legal "brings no objective logic to the table" is unclear,as is the notion that "logic" can be either objective or subjective.

Regarding the deaf example, I have no strong opinion. Here's another possibility. Suppose someone (Mrs.Lavar Ball?) tested her fetuses to see what their projected height would be, and aborted any fetuses which looked unlikely to reach 6'6" or taller as adults? Of course, given abortion on demand, this would be legal. But is it morally acceptable? If not, why not?
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Littlemoon »

Ecurb wrote: December 21st, 2017, 10:20 am
LuckyR wrote: December 21st, 2017, 3:45 am

Actually (if we believe what you are posting, which I do) you do "buy this". Your trying to parse differences between supporting the legality of abortion on demand with voicing a non-binding moral objection to this or that use of your previously stated "support" for the same legal entity, is entertaining to watch but brings little to no objective logic to the table.

Here's a stirring of the pot to see which supporters are real and which are fake: in the deaf community it is not unheard of for parents (who are deaf) to seek genetic testing to predict if their children will have deafness, and abort the fetuses who would have been born hearing. Thoughts?
I'm sure all of us agree that some behaviors that are immoral should not be made illegal, and some that are illegal are not immoral. Why discussing the morality of behaviors that are (properly) legal "brings no objective logic to the table" is unclear,as is the notion that "logic" can be either objective or subjective.

Regarding the deaf example, I have no strong opinion. Here's another possibility. Suppose someone (Mrs.Lavar Ball?) tested her fetuses to see what their projected height would be, and aborted any fetuses which looked unlikely to reach 6'6" or taller as adults? Of course, given abortion on demand, this would be legal. But is it morally acceptable? If not, why not?
Regarding to the example, we would be dangerously entering the field of genetic manipulation which is immoral and illegal even by science.
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by LuckyR »

Ecurb wrote: December 21st, 2017, 10:20 am
LuckyR wrote: December 21st, 2017, 3:45 am

Actually (if we believe what you are posting, which I do) you do "buy this". Your trying to parse differences between supporting the legality of abortion on demand with voicing a non-binding moral objection to this or that use of your previously stated "support" for the same legal entity, is entertaining to watch but brings little to no objective logic to the table.

Here's a stirring of the pot to see which supporters are real and which are fake: in the deaf community it is not unheard of for parents (who are deaf) to seek genetic testing to predict if their children will have deafness, and abort the fetuses who would have been born hearing. Thoughts?
I'm sure all of us agree that some behaviors that are immoral should not be made illegal, and some that are illegal are not immoral. Why discussing the morality of behaviors that are (properly) legal "brings no objective logic to the table" is unclear,as is the notion that "logic" can be either objective or subjective.

Regarding the deaf example, I have no strong opinion. Here's another possibility. Suppose someone (Mrs.Lavar Ball?) tested her fetuses to see what their projected height would be, and aborted any fetuses which looked unlikely to reach 6'6" or taller as adults? Of course, given abortion on demand, this would be legal. But is it morally acceptable? If not, why not?
Hard to know what to make of a post that may (or may not) equate "no strong opinion" with not "morally acceptable". Equal?
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Ecurb »

Huh? It's hard to know what to make of your post, because it makes no sense.
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by LuckyR »

Okay, well Ohio bans abortion on Downs syndrome fetuses (but allows it on normal fetuses). Law takes effect in 90 days.

The best part is that the Law's supporters are using non-discrimination (against Downs syndrome kids) as their rationale for the law (??)
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Count Lucanor »

Littlemoon wrote: December 18th, 2017, 8:08 pm Hey guys. So I recently read about finland and down syndrome and apparently the women there almost 100% will go for abortion if down syndrome is detected.
So my question is, do you think it's ethical for a women to abort if the fetus has down syndrome or should still carry out the pregnancy?
I am just interested in knowing what's everyone's opinion and maybe carry a discussion about this.
No matter what the reason is, I think that termination of pregnancy in the first trimester should not be an ethical problem, neither a legal one, in the act itself. I mean, no one should ask the reason before allowing the procedure.

Having said that, I think this does not leave out other ethical dilemmas within the justification themselves. For example, it is not unethical to restrict access to a party you're having in your house, so only your acquaintances can get in. However, if the reason you hold for restricting access is ethnic background, then your reason could be immoral. Just the same, having an abortion because the fetus has Down Syndrome, or any other condition requiring special care, or because it is not the desired race or sex, makes one wonder if there's not at least some ethical issues at play. People with Down Syndrome are known to grow up to live decent lives.

This is not black and white, of course. I remember thinking the worst of the parents of Juliana Wetmore, despite people arguing that she could have a good life.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Sy Borg »

One way or another, human beings are shaping themselves, "domesticating" themselves just as we have done with some other species. The results of the domestication have been the kinds of animals that we most desire, and this is also the case with humans - becoming less wild, capable of focusing enough to absorb instructions and, in the case of humans, also able to respond to reason. This is increasingly the case, despite the growth of the alt right, which is simply an expression of fear in response to rapid, unpredictable change. Of course some will pine for the faux uncertainty of authoritarianism.

So eugenics has effectively always been practised, just that the "rejects" die during childhood, teens and early adulthood instead of in utero. However, no fate is sealed and there's is always the probability of a good life for the congenitally disadvantaged, but it is lower, and probabilities should be taken seriously. In time, the west is surely going to be forced to be less squeamish about life and death, like the Chinese who for many generations have been wrestling with the issues of high population density that the "immature" west is only now learning about. Dear West, the party is over. You either leave in an orderly manner or you will be removed forcibly.

Surely it's better to kill a life form before he/she/it becomes sensate than to give the being a brief and painful taste of life before being snuffed out? The question then becomes whether painful and miserable life is better than no life at all. I can imagine the answer to that being largely split between the secular and the religious.

For those who believe in redemption via suffering and/or reincarnation, no amount of suffering (of others) is too much for the sake of life's sanctity. For antinatalists, it's better not to live at all and avoid the inevitable suffering, fear and loss in the first place. For most, a capacity for happiness is required to make life worthwhile, hence the religious split in euthanasia and abortion debates. What I have never comprehended is why that same split is reversed when it comes to war. How can so many "pro lifers" justify their grave concern for insensate beings not yet capable of mentality or love and yet are wildly cavalier when it comes to risking the lives of young adults with their support of military adventurism.
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

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Greta wrote: December 24th, 2017, 5:37 pm One way or another, human beings are shaping themselves, "domesticating" themselves just as we have done with some other species. The results of the domestication have been the kinds of animals that we most desire, and this is also the case with humans - becoming less wild, capable of focusing enough to absorb instructions and, in the case of humans, also able to respond to reason. This is increasingly the case, despite the growth of the alt right, which is simply an expression of fear in response to rapid, unpredictable change. Of course some will pine for the faux uncertainty of authoritarianism.

So eugenics has effectively always been practised, just that the "rejects" die during childhood, teens and early adulthood instead of in utero. However, no fate is sealed and there's is always the probability of a good life for the congenitally disadvantaged, but it is lower, and probabilities should be taken seriously. In time, the west is surely going to be forced to be less squeamish about life and death, like the Chinese who for many generations have been wrestling with the issues of high population density that the "immature" west is only now learning about. Dear West, the party is over. You either leave in an orderly manner or you will be removed forcibly.

Surely it's better to kill a life form before he/she/it becomes sensate than to give the being a brief and painful taste of life before being snuffed out? The question then becomes whether painful and miserable life is better than no life at all. I can imagine the answer to that being largely split between the secular and the religious.

For those who believe in redemption via suffering and/or reincarnation, no amount of suffering (of others) is too much for the sake of life's sanctity. For antinatalists, it's better not to live at all and avoid the inevitable suffering, fear and loss in the first place. For most, a capacity for happiness is required to make life worthwhile, hence the religious split in euthanasia and abortion debates. What I have never comprehended is why that same split is reversed when it comes to war. How can so many "pro lifers" justify their grave concern for insensate beings not yet capable of mentality or love and yet are wildly cavalier when it comes to risking the lives of young adults with their support of military adventurism.
Well your first mistake is assuming spoken rationalizations for preconceived or dogmatic conclusions are arrived at after an internal, logic driven review of the issues involved. As the term rationalization implies, the conclusion (opinion) is given first, later the justification is manufactured to support it. Hence why they are commonly not internally consistent.
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Sy Borg »

Well, I'm pleased at least that there was apparently not a second one. Still, they claim to be consistent and should be challenged on that.
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by LuckyR »

Greta wrote: December 25th, 2017, 8:00 am Well, I'm pleased at least that there was apparently not a second one. Still, they claim to be consistent and should be challenged on that.
True, though in the post-knowledge era, truth and integrity are of little to no importance to modern politicians and their followers.
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Sy Borg »

LuckyR wrote: December 26th, 2017, 4:28 am
Greta wrote: December 25th, 2017, 8:00 am Well, I'm pleased at least that there was apparently not a second one. Still, they claim to be consistent and should be challenged on that.
True, though in the post-knowledge era, truth and integrity are of little to no importance to modern politicians and their followers.
Prehistory and history are owned only by those who persist. The postmodern thinking of today's "Redneck Spring" will fall away because it's not based on reality. The usual image of fundies toughness and independence, which is in truth almost cartoonish display behaviour intended to mask profound disempowerment in an information age that will increasingly let go those unable to keep up.

So-called right-to-lifers will fall away, along with flat Earthers and exorcists.
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by LuckyR »

Greta wrote: December 26th, 2017, 4:33 pm
LuckyR wrote: December 26th, 2017, 4:28 am

True, though in the post-knowledge era, truth and integrity are of little to no importance to modern politicians and their followers.
Prehistory and history are owned only by those who persist. The postmodern thinking of today's "Redneck Spring" will fall away because it's not based on reality. The usual image of fundies toughness and independence, which is in truth almost cartoonish display behaviour intended to mask profound disempowerment in an information age that will increasingly let go those unable to keep up.

So-called right-to-lifers will fall away, along with flat Earthers and exorcists.
That is a traditional analysis of a post-traditional situation. You are not taking into account the robust alternate information, news and understanding of what is happening and why that certain information consumers are immersed in.
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Re: Down syndrome and abortion

Post by Sy Borg »

LuckyR wrote: December 27th, 2017, 3:34 am
Greta wrote: December 26th, 2017, 4:33 pm
Prehistory and history are owned only by those who persist. The postmodern thinking of today's "Redneck Spring" will fall away because it's not based on reality. The usual image of fundies toughness and independence, which is in truth almost cartoonish display behaviour intended to mask profound disempowerment in an information age that will increasingly let go those unable to keep up.

So-called right-to-lifers will fall away, along with flat Earthers and exorcists.
That is a traditional analysis of a post-traditional situation. You are not taking into account the robust alternate information, news and understanding of what is happening and why that certain information consumers are immersed in.
There's always been nonsense peddlers. Superstition reigned for centuries during the Dark Ages, but increasing rationalism has occurred ever since. It's hardly surprising that the growth of logic and rationalism is pitted rather than smoothly linear, as is most progress.
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