Desire

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Fumani
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Desire

Post by Fumani »

Is the desire to achieve more in life in the broadest context an organic process in nature, or is it an artificial construct that is forged by the mind?
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Present awareness
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Re: Desire

Post by Present awareness »

According to Buddha, desire is the root cause of all suffering. If we do not have what we desire, we suffer and if we do achieve what we desire, we will suffer when it’s gone. Since all is impermanent, any attachment to things, will cause suffering when it disappears.
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Hereandnow
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Re: Desire

Post by Hereandnow »

Hmmmm. Buddhism works out in the same way any other desire does: You have to desire "nirvana" to acquire it. And like all other desire, once you have it, you don't desire it anymore. Desire is a future looking condition, necessarily separated from the desideratum. And, of course, Buddhist desire is for something more deeply profound than, say, my desire for pizza tonight. And further stiil, the language is important: all desires are not the same, are they? Craving is different from longing or yearning. These latter two lean away from the appetitive and toward the emotions, which are where nirvana can be found (which may be a point of contention).
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LuckyR
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Re: Desire

Post by LuckyR »

Present awareness wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 1:33 am According to Buddha, desire is the root cause of all suffering. If we do not have what we desire, we suffer and if we do achieve what we desire, we will suffer when it’s gone. Since all is impermanent, any attachment to things, will cause suffering when it disappears.
True enough, but I would argue that suffering is not a universal negative. Thus desire is also not something to be avoided.
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Re: Desire

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Fumani

The former sounds better to me. The idea of all organic matter struggling to grow and become more. This first idea is very much like Nietzsche's Will to Power. I cannot think of an instance of this idea being false. I certainly would say the desire to achieve more in life in the broadest context is an organic process.
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Re: Desire

Post by LuckyR »

Fumani wrote: January 1st, 2018, 3:26 pm Is the desire to achieve more in life in the broadest context an organic process in nature, or is it an artificial construct that is forged by the mind?
It sort of depends on what you mean by your red statement. The broadest meaning of organic desire is to procreate ie to have a greater genetic representation over time. Though it is true that in Modern society, genetic representation has been substituted out for toy acquisition (due to advertising/mass media influences) and at the lowest end of the scale moving from abject poverty to a subsistence level of "achievement" leads to broader/greater genetic representation. Problem is that in the Modern era, going from subsistence to middle income to high wealth leads to less and less genetic representation due to women's education. Clearly this was not an issue when the patterns of life were laid down multiple millennia ago.
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Judaka
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Re: Desire

Post by Judaka »

I believe humans have an innate psychological need for progress and achievement. Humans are capable of defining what constitutes as achievements and progress, our values give us some idea of what to strive for and what to steer clear of.
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Re: Desire

Post by Spectrum »

Present awareness wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 1:33 am According to Buddha, desire is the root cause of all suffering. If we do not have what we desire, we suffer and if we do achieve what we desire, we will suffer when it’s gone. Since all is impermanent, any attachment to things, will cause suffering when it disappears.
According to Buddhism, it is not desire per se that is the a root cause of all sufferings.
The critical root cause [interdependent with others] of dukkha [human problem or suffering] is ignorance [avidya]. Thus 'Right Knowledge' is critical to eliminate ignorance.

In this case it is the ignorance of the nature and limits of 'desire' i.e. "a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen."
If one is stuck in a room that is lack of oxygen, one would 'desire' to breathe fresh air to relieve physical sufferings.
Thus there are degrees to 'desire.'

Note Aristotle on 'anger' which is applicable to 'desire';
  • Anybody can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not within everybody's power and is not easy. - Aristotle
Thus generally 'desire' is not an issue [as dukkha] until such desires are turned to the extreme of craving, lust and the likes that is linked to extreme emotions and lack of impulse control.
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Re: Desire

Post by Spectrum »

Judaka wrote: January 4th, 2018, 6:45 am I believe humans have an innate psychological need for progress and achievement. Humans are capable of defining what constitutes as achievements and progress, our values give us some idea of what to strive for and what to steer clear of.
Agree and yes 'innate' and 'inherent.'
This inherent drive is evident from the empirical evidences of human history.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Present awareness
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Re: Desire

Post by Present awareness »

Spectrum wrote: January 5th, 2018, 4:25 am
Present awareness wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 1:33 am According to Buddha, desire is the root cause of all suffering. If we do not have what we desire, we suffer and if we do achieve what we desire, we will suffer when it’s gone. Since all is impermanent, any attachment to things, will cause suffering when it disappears.
According to Buddhism, it is not desire per se that is the a root cause of all sufferings.
The critical root cause [interdependent with others] of dukkha [human problem or suffering] is ignorance [avidya]. Thus 'Right Knowledge' is critical to eliminate ignorance.

In this case it is the ignorance of the nature and limits of 'desire' i.e. "a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen."
If one is stuck in a room that is lack of oxygen, one would 'desire' to breathe fresh air to relieve physical sufferings.
Thus there are degrees to 'desire.'

Note Aristotle on 'anger' which is applicable to 'desire';
  • Anybody can become angry - that is easy, but to be angry with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not within everybody's power and is not easy. - Aristotle
Thus generally 'desire' is not an issue [as dukkha] until such desires are turned to the extreme of craving, lust and the likes that is linked to extreme emotions and lack of impulse control.

There is a difference between desire and need. The need for oxygen, food or water are not desires, for we die without them. Once our needs for the necessities of life have been met, we may then turn our attention to desire.
All desires, including the desire to eliminate desire, are based on ignorance. This “Right Knowlege” which you speak of, must come from within, for knowlege without personal experience, is false knowlege.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Desire

Post by Sy Borg »

Maxcady10001 wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 1:30 pmThe former sounds better to me. The idea of all organic matter struggling to grow and become more. This first idea is very much like Nietzsche's Will to Power. I cannot think of an instance of this idea being false. I certainly would say the desire to achieve more in life in the broadest context is an organic process.
Thanks Max, that's what I was thinking. Life always wants to expand its size, scope and influence, be it via girth, wealth, reproduction, learning or memetics. To that end life on Earth has done an extraordinary job over the last few billion years.
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Re: Desire

Post by Spectrum »

Present awareness wrote: January 6th, 2018, 1:03 am
Spectrum wrote: January 5th, 2018, 4:25 am In this case it is the ignorance of the nature and limits of 'desire' i.e. "a strong feeling of wanting to have something or wishing for something to happen."
If one is stuck in a room that is lack of oxygen, one would 'desire' to breathe fresh air to relieve physical sufferings.
Thus there are degrees to 'desire.'
There is a difference between desire and need. The need for oxygen, food or water are not desires, for we die without them. Once our needs for the necessities of life have been met, we may then turn our attention to desire.
All desires, including the desire to eliminate desire, are based on ignorance. This “Right Knowlege” which you speak of, must come from within, for knowledge without personal experience, is false knowlege.
Generally there is a difference between 'need' and 'desire' but they overlap where 'need' becomes 'desire.'
In the ordinary case, all humans need oxygen. But in the case I specified one is stuck in a room [with many people, etc] and there is a lack of oxygen. In such a not-normal situation, the desperation for a need turned to be desire when this is encompassed with emotions, i.e. fear of death.

In many cases, people are invoked with 'desire' therefrom cravings even after their basic needs are met, e.g. in cases of obesity.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Re: Desire

Post by Freudian Monkey »

Present awareness wrote: January 2nd, 2018, 1:33 am According to Buddha, desire is the root cause of all suffering. If we do not have what we desire, we suffer and if we do achieve what we desire, we will suffer when it’s gone. Since all is impermanent, any attachment to things, will cause suffering when it disappears.
I'm actually rather interested to hear more about Buddhism's concept of self-improvement. To me meditation and other mental and physical exercises Buddhists do seem like self-improvement techniques that aim to gain more thorough control over one's thoughts, desires and impulses. To me this kind of pursuit for control over one's internal reality can also be seen as a desire to obtain Power, at least if by Power we mean one's ability to cause change to his internal or external reality. So when a Buddhist desires to obtain a more thorough control over his internal reality, he desires for Power. Is this somehow in opposition to the Buddhist ideal of getting rid of all attachments? Mental exercise and self-denial can also be seen as something one can get attached to, can it not? Or is the goal only to get rid of all attachments to material possessions and such?
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Re: Desire

Post by Hereandnow »

Freudian Monkey:
'm actually rather interested to hear more about Buddhism's concept of self-improvement. To me meditation and other mental and physical exercises Buddhists do seem like self-improvement techniques that aim to gain more thorough control over one's thoughts, desires and impulses. To me this kind of pursuit for control over one's internal reality can also be seen as a desire to obtain Power, at least if by Power we mean one's ability to cause change to his internal or external reality. So when a Buddhist desires to obtain a more thorough control over his internal reality, he desires for Power. Is this somehow in opposition to the Buddhist ideal of getting rid of all attachments? Mental exercise and self-denial can also be seen as something one can get attached to, can it not? Or is the goal only to get rid of all attachments to material possessions and such?
Buddhism has one and only one purpose, which is moksa, or liberation. I think you have to look at it this way: Right now I am interested in what I'm writing. Afterward, I will probably be dwelling on this or that, my need for a new computer, how I dislike someone in politics, and so forth. Buddhism says that anything at all that you bring to mind is a kind pf captivity. Consider: who decided that I would think about politics? Actually, it just came to mind and took me away and I followed obediently. The first step is, don't let this happen. To be liberated you have to understand the nature of your captivity, which is the attachments that possess you in the actual moments of your lived life. And thoughts are not abstractions: they are feeling-toned as I once read it put. They are part of what science calls your central nervous system. So, it is not the mere cessation of thought, it is the taking of thoughts and their infused feelings and appetites and desires and loathings, and so on; and ending these.
For me, real Buddhist meditation is not just stilling the mind. It is ending the non volitional cycle of thinking itself, and this takes place right at the "place" in your conscious awareness where it is all produced: put your attention to the base of your conscious existence, where thought and feeling rise up at the very point of origin, where nerves create experience itself. This is where air hunger has its origin, where your most primordial sense of being here at all has it origin. Very interesting. If you are diligent, attachments will fall away more and more and something dormant within will show itself.

Not for everyone.

If you just want make friends and influence people better, just go to your local meditation center. Helpful? Sure.
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Re: Desire

Post by Freudian Monkey »

Hereandnow wrote: January 14th, 2018, 12:45 pm
Buddhism has one and only one purpose, which is moksa, or liberation. I think you have to look at it this way: Right now I am interested in what I'm writing. Afterward, I will probably be dwelling on this or that, my need for a new computer, how I dislike someone in politics, and so forth. Buddhism says that anything at all that you bring to mind is a kind pf captivity. Consider: who decided that I would think about politics? Actually, it just came to mind and took me away and I followed obediently. The first step is, don't let this happen. To be liberated you have to understand the nature of your captivity, which is the attachments that possess you in the actual moments of your lived life. And thoughts are not abstractions: they are feeling-toned as I once read it put. They are part of what science calls your central nervous system. So, it is not the mere cessation of thought, it is the taking of thoughts and their infused feelings and appetites and desires and loathings, and so on; and ending these.
For me, real Buddhist meditation is not just stilling the mind. It is ending the non volitional cycle of thinking itself, and this takes place right at the "place" in your conscious awareness where it is all produced: put your attention to the base of your conscious existence, where thought and feeling rise up at the very point of origin, where nerves create experience itself. This is where air hunger has its origin, where your most primordial sense of being here at all has it origin. Very interesting. If you are diligent, attachments will fall away more and more and something dormant within will show itself.

Not for everyone.

If you just want make friends and influence people better, just go to your local meditation center. Helpful? Sure.
This is a very interesting description, but I would still like to hear further clarification about whether the pursuit of control over one's internal reality can also be considered an attachment. In other words, are mental exercises to gain control over one's mental functions in opposition to the Buddhist teaching, since they are something one has to exercise to acquire? Is the pursuit of liberation also something that can become an attachment? What is the right way to approach moksa then if one cannot get too attached to the acquisition of control over his/her mental processes?
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