Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

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Maxcady10001
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Plato would ( with perhaps the odd ,rare exception)
If you accept Plato's logic, why would you propose a government system without female participation? This seems to make for an inefficent system, if you are not going to allow for the most exceptional women to participate. Plato said

"Can there be anything better for a state than that it should contain the best possible men and women?"(Plato's Republic, pg. 163)

He also said

"But as for the man who laughs at the idea of undressed women going through gymnastic excercises, as a means of realizing what is most perfect, his ridicule is but "unripe fruit plucked from the tree of wisdom, " and he knows not, to all appearance what he is laughing at or what he is doing: for it is and ever will be a most excellent maxim, that the useful is noble, and the hurtful is base"(Plato's Republic, pg. 164)

If you seriously consider Plato's philosophy, your argument is untenable, because it forgets the "utility" of women. Also, you have not put any arguments forward, as already mentioned.
Dachshund
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Dachshund »

Greta wrote: January 5th, 2018, 4:59 pm I will reiterate my prior post because it was not addressed:

That is because you ignore the fact that progress accelerated around the time that women started to gain some rights, and continues to accelerate. You also ignore the fact that all of the most prosperous and capable nations have more gender equality while all of the worst, most divided, torn, dysfunctional and corrupt nations are much more patriarchal.

Stick to the topic Dachs

Look, you want to disenfranchise me. Are you surprised to find vigorous opposition? Did you expect me to lie back and just take it for Dachsie?

Why should you have the vote and I not? You are clearly less qualified to vote than I am - less informed (sprouting Breitbart propaganda), less intelligent (weak reasoning) and less moral (racist and sexist). I am not bragging because neither of us are so special; I'm just seemingly less limited than you in those areas. I expect that I much better understand the structure and function of the various levels of government than you do - yet you deem me unfit to vote.

I wonder what the real reason for your stance is because it surely isn't about logic.

[/quote]



The reason for my stance? Let me explain.

First of all you have to understand that I'm a homeboy. I'm a homeboy in the sense that I was born and bred in the USA and I am proud of my roots. I love my country and my Western culture. Sadly for the past 50 years this great culture and everything it stands for have been attacked by a deadly enemy within, and right now it is in desperate trouble; it is literally fighting for its life and I am here to defend it.

In my OP, I proposed that we ( the beleaguered, war-weary men of the West should revoke women's suffrage. I said this because I sincerely believe it is one of the best battle strategies for saving our culture and the great civilization that we managed to build upon it.

If you want to know the logic behind my thing here it is.

We need to start at the very beginning, so I will commence my response by telling you a basic truth about life. This truth is that life is struggle. Where there is no struggle there is no progress. Human progress, that is, is not automatic nor is it inevitable. Every step forward towards the ultimate goal which, by the way is FREEDOM, -(freedom from privation and tyranny) - takes it toll in sacrifice, suffering and struggle.Still, after countless wars, reformations, revolutions, Magna Cartas and constitutions mankind has to prevail in creating a genuinely free society; it is that great achievement we collectively refer to today as Western civilization. The freedoms that we in the West enjoy,were, as I say, not handed to us on a silver platter, they were hard fought and won over thousands of years of human history; hard fought and won, Greta, NOT by women but always through the blood, sweat, toil and tears of MEN. I am referring to those magnificent freedoms we have in the modern West to say what we like, to believe what we like, to be the self-governing masters of our own destinies, and above all else to be entitled to keep the vast majority of the fruits of our own labour. The securing of these freedoms represents the pinnacle of achievement in mankind's struggle to progress to a better life and a better world. We in the West are not subject to human tyranny in the form of tribal chieftains, warlords, dictators despots or religious theocracies who would enslave us for their own enrichment and pleasure, nor are we subject to natural privations and limitations in the form of hunger, thirst, famine, extremes of heat and cold, animal predators, etc.

It was, however, mainly by allowing people to keep the majority of the proceeds of their own time and effort and have agency over their own lives that the West made the incredible advances it did over the past 300 years ( which, Greta, is roughly when freedom began to become prevalent in our civilization, i.e. not with the advent of women's suffrage and the subsequent rise of the feminist movement it spawned which began ,in earnest, in the early 1970s). Moreover, this remarkable progress was chiefly delivered by we - the white/Europid males of the West - we, the white/Europid males of the West were the ones who solved the problem of hunger, we were the ones who discovered electricity and automation, we were the ones who achieved flight and eradicated disease, we were the ones who founded computing and unlocked the secrets of chemistry and nuclear and quantum physics and a trillion things more ! But all of this, ALL OF IT (!) hinges on one critical thing, that being that people are allowed to stay free and, as I say, remain fully entitled to keep the vast majority of their own production and be the masters of their own lives. If we lose this, we lose EVERYTHING.

Enter in women.

(Because I anticipate that this reply to your queries will ultimately be quite lengthy, I have decided it might be best to deliver it not all at once in one giant post, but rather in a short series of bite-sized chunks. This , I hope, will avoid putting off any forum members or visitors with the formidable task of reading through one giant lump of text. So, that's all for now. I will resume my response to your questions from where I have left off above tomorrow).


Regards


Dachshund
Dachshund
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Dachshund »

NB: in the post above I intended to say " mankind has managed to prevail in creating a genuinely free society". I omitted the word "managed" by mistake.
Steve3007
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Steve3007 »

Dachshund wrote:First of all you have to understand that I'm a homeboy. I'm a homeboy in the sense that I was born and bred in the USA and I am proud of my roots.
One of the things that slightly spoils the Dachshund character for me is the minor inconsistencies.
Dachshund wrote: I originally qualified as a pharmacist, then, while I was married and living in the UK ( I am an Australian national like Greta) I took a PGCE and taught GCSE science and "A" Chemistry in a number of 11-18 comprehensives in Hertfordshire.
He also uses British/Australian English, not American English (not Webster's), spelling conventions, notably with the word "colour" in this (wonderfully in-character) descriptive piece:
Dachshund wrote:...ugly, 20-something, grossly over-weight, tattoo-festooned, multi-colour haired, loud-mouthed "radical feminist" bitch...
Or "humour" (as opposed to "humor"):
Dachshund wrote:...Or perhaps, it is just the case you have a similar sense of humour to Nietzsche...
I suppose a back-story ("born in the US, moved to Australia before learning to spell, then UK...") might help. It also might flesh out the reasons for the extremist views and make the character more sympathetic. Two dimensional bad-guys are fun in action movies, but the best characters are those which have aspects of their character/actions that we find abhorrent but with whom we can nevertheless empathize to a certain extent.


A more minor inconsistency: On another thread I was surprised to see him apparently not being sceptical of anthropogenic climate change. I think the Dachshund character would be a climate change sceptic (although, for consistency, he should spell it skeptic!). I think he would regard climate change as a hoax created by people who want an excuse to implement socialist government policies and spend large amounts of public money (i.e. an excuse to reduce the amount of personal wealth people are allowed to keep for themselves.) That's the more usual, and therefore the more believable, position for this type of character.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Dachshund wrote: January 6th, 2018, 2:38 am NB: in the post above I intended to say " mankind has managed to prevail in creating a genuinely free society". I omitted the word "managed" by mistake.
In the context of all the rubbish you've come out with so far, that particular mistake is hardly worth bothering about.
Dachshund
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Dachshund »

Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2018, 5:36 am
Dachshund wrote:First of all you have to understand that I'm a homeboy. I'm a homeboy in the sense that I was born and bred in the USA and I am proud of my roots.

One of the things that slightly spoils the Dachshund character for me is the minor inconsistencies.
Dachshund wrote: I originally qualified as a pharmacist, then, while I was married and living in the UK ( I am an Australian national like Greta) I took a PGCE and taught GCSE science and "A" Chemistry in a number of 11-18 comprehensives in Hertfordshire.
He also uses British/Australian English, not American English (not Webster's), spelling conventions, notably with the word "colour" in this (wonderfully in-character) descriptive piece:
Dachshund wrote:...ugly, 20-something, grossly over-weight, tattoo-festooned, multi-colour haired, loud-mouthed "radical feminist" bitch...
Or "humour" (as opposed to "humor"):
Dachshund wrote:...Or perhaps, it is just the case you have a similar sense of humour to Nietzsche...
I suppose a back-story ("born in the US, moved to Australia before learning to spell, then UK...") might help. It also might flesh out the reasons for the extremist views and make the character more sympathetic. Two dimensional bad-guys are fun in action movies, but the best characters are those which have aspects of their character/actions that we find abhorrent but with whom we can nevertheless empathize to a certain extent.


A more minor inconsistency: On another thread I was surprised to see him apparently not being sceptical of anthropogenic climate change. I think the Dachshund character would be a climate change sceptic (although, for consistency, he should spell it skeptic!). I think he would regard climate change as a hoax created by people who want an excuse to implement socialist government policies and spend large amounts of public money (i.e. an excuse to reduce the amount of personal wealth people are allowed to keep for themselves.) That's the more usual, and therefore the more believable, position for this type of character.


Briefly...

Born and raised as a child in the US, as a teenager and adult resided in Australia and became an Aust citizen. Married an English women in my 30s and spent many years in UK as well. Hence a mixture of Western backgrounds and experiences.

Now that I 've explained that. Can I request of you AGAIN, that instead of fiddle - arsing and fuss -budgetting about like a pedantic old woman; - that instead of concentrating on what are essentially irrelevant, trivial, minutiae in my posts , you might actually grow a spine or (a pair of balls) and endeavour to provide some kind of robust rebuttal ( if possible ) wrt to the key ISSUES that are being discussed ?
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Sy Borg
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Sy Borg »

Times change. As things stand, patriarchies are dying because they are non competitive.
Steve3007
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Steve3007 »

John,

Thanks for the brief back story. I hope you can flesh out more of the gaps in the character as time goes on.
you might actually grow a spine or (a pair of balls)
Good stuff. In character.

OK.

The core message of the Dachshund character's recent post seems to be this:

1. Low taxation (being allowed to keep most of the fruits of our labour. Sorry, labor) is a good thing.
2. Men tend to vote for small government with low taxation.
3. Women tend to vote for big governments with high taxation.
4. Therefore if I want low taxation I should ban women from voting.

If premises 1 to 3 are true and if the end always justifies the means, and if the Dachshund character is allowed to get what he wants by any means possible, then the conclusion (4) seems to work pretty well. A similar thing could be done with any easily identifiable group who it has been reliably determined tends to vote in a certain way. Gender is a particular identifiable one because our gender is actually recorded in government records. So banning people from voting based on their gender would be easier than, say, skin colour. With skin colour there is some scope for ambiguity. There would have to be the odd tests that they used to do in Apartheid South Africa. But if that ambiguity could be resolved, and if reliable surveys determined that people of different skin colours tend, on the whole, to have different voting patterns, then banning people from voting on that basis could also be a fairly effective way to get the government that you personally want.

Objections:

Tyranny of Dachshund wouldn't really work. There'd be too much resistance. Premises 2 and 3 aren't necessarily valid. Premise 1 is debatable, and has of course been extensively debated. Banning entire groups from voting simply because you don't like the way they tend to vote is generally frowned upon and would tend to meet too much resistance.

etc.

If you want to abolish democracy, as you've stated here that you want to do, I don't think you'll succeed. Obviously democracies have voted themselves out of existence in the past, and in some previous posts you've made some comments about the 19th Amendment to the US constitution which suggest you've thought about the technicalities of achieving your aim a little bit. Only about 20% of representatives in Congress are women. So I guess, on the face of it, you might expect an 80% vote in favour of banning women from voting? But possibly you've underestimated the extent to which those 80% of men in Congress are spineless low-testosterone gonad-less types like Steve3007? They may (as it were) refuse to play ball!
Steve3007
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Steve3007 »

Quid pro quo (as Hannibal Lecter used to say to Agent Starling) . More on your back story:
Born and raised as a child in the US, as a teenager and adult resided in Australia and became an Aust citizen. Married an English women in my 30s and spent many years in UK as well. Hence a mixture of Western backgrounds and experiences.
Still married? Wife still alive? If so, what are her views on this? Have you asked her? Do you consider them relevant?
Steve3007
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Steve3007 »

Regarding the desire of Daschund to get the government he wants by banning groups from voting if their voting intentions tend, on the whole, to differ from his own:

Some brief research shows that in the recent electoral history of the US there is a clear difference. Men tended to vote in larger numbers for Trump and women for Clinton in such a way that you could clearly get the president you wanted (whether it's Trump or Clinton) simply by banning either men or women from voting. So the aim of creating your dictatorship by banning the contrary voters would probably work there.

Not so clear in the UK though.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolic ... in-ge2017/

There seems to be only a very slight Conservative/Labour split based on gender. And men tend to vote Liberal Democrat more than women. The effect of age on voting seems to be more significant than gender. So in the UK I would suggest that you could more effectively get what you want by instigating age-based voting bans rather than gender-based bans. Age, like gender, is a matter of official record. So just as easy to use as the basis for discrimination. I suggest pushing for an increase in the minimum voting age to, say, 60.

Alternatively, you could just cut out the need to do surveys on the way groups tend to vote, and simply push for a ban on voting for anybody other than the candidate you yourself favour? Why not do that? Do you think it would have more or less success than pushing for a ban on a particular gender or age group?
Dachshund
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Dachshund »

Actually, as I look through all of the replies to my OP to date, I note that it is not just Steve 3007 who fails to present any material objection/s to my core arguments, but ALL of the other respondents as well. I see that so far - (and please correct me if I am mistaken) -there is nothing, nada, zip, nil that has been posted in way of reasonable objections to the points I have made. Rather, there is only a disreputable clutch of petty, spiteful personal insults or diversionary off- topic remarks like those Steve 3007 seems to feel are relevant to the issues that I have placed on the table for debate - (they are NOT relevant Steve, and can I remind you again that I find them frustrating and most unhelpful as they DO distract readers from focussing on the important subject matter at hand) or arrant stupidity such as the claim made by one poster that women's suffrage cannot be repealed once it has been ratified because no political mechanisms exist to overturn it.

These comments are presumably a consequence of the outraged indignation that is felt by the predominantly "pink", left-leaning, "progressive" habitues of internet philosophy forums like this one. Comments that are automatically spat out in "knee-jerk" reaction the fact that I have dared to speak some very inconvenient truths. Truths, I mean, that breach the strict, politically correct etiquette currently imposed by liberal orthodoxy in today's West. Truths that defy the PC "gag order" which prohibits one from publicly exposing the embarrassing fact that the fashionable theories of feminism, gender equality, women's rights, sexism etc; are all nothing more than bumph components of the broader, and innately degenerate, late Western world-view known as postmodernism that currently blights our late Western civilization. That essentially DECADENT world - view that is driven by a combination of the cowering, intellectually defeatist thesis of cultural relativism and the dead ideologies and out-dated philosophical arguments that undergird traditional Marxist-Leninist socialism.

So, in short, I have decided to make it my policy from this point on to simply reply with the phrase "PUT UP OR SHUT UP" whenever irrelevant, evasive, off -topic or ad hominem etc; comments are posted in response to the arguments I set out in support the proposal I made in my OP, namely ,that women's suffrage should be revoked in the West as soon as possible.
Maxcady10001
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Maxcady10001 »

You must have missed my most recent post, as it is not at all off topic.
If you accept Plato's logic, why would you propose a government system without female participation? This seems to make for an inefficent system, if you are not going to allow for the most exceptional women to participate. Plato said

"Can there be anything better for a state than that it should contain the best possible men and women?"(Plato's Republic, pg. 163)

He also said

"But as for the man who laughs at the idea of undressed women going through gymnastic excercises, as a means of realizing what is most perfect, his ridicule is but "unripe fruit plucked from the tree of wisdom, " and he knows not, to all appearance what he is laughing at or what he is doing: for it is and ever will be a most excellent maxim, that the useful is noble, and the hurtful is base"(Plato's Republic, pg. 164)

If you seriously consider Plato's philosophy, your argument is untenable, because it forgets the "utility" of women. Also, you have not put any arguments forward, as already mentioned.
Steve3007
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Steve3007 »

Dachshund:

Do you agree with my earlier 4 point summary of the message in your earlier post? In that post, you expressed the view more than once that low taxation - allowing people to keep most of the products of their labour - is desirable to you. And it seems logical to assume that you want to stop women from voting because you disagree with the way in which you think they are generally likely to vote. So my summary is reasonable, yes?

Also, when I stated that you are arguing for the abolition of democracy in favour of a system where people are allowed to vote based on whether they agree with you, do you think it was reasonable or unreasonable for me to say that?
Dachshund
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Dachshund »

Yes, you have correctly identified the issue of taxation and big government and the FACT that women have , since the early 1970s predominantly voted for high- taxing, left-wing parties. Moreover, there is, as I will point out in my next substantial post on the issue, hard, incontrovertible, empirical research evidence that confirms this. In other words, the argument that women will naturally tend to vote for the left is not merely a plausible theory; we KNOW for a fact that in the West they DO turn out and vote strongly for the left (i.e. the Democrats in the US, the Labour party in the UK and the ALP in Australia) and they have done so for roughly the past 50 years, ever since the feminist movement first began to properly establish itself as a material political force in Western societies.

BTW, with respect to democracy, the standard description of Western nations usually involves a perfunctory statement of some kind to the effect that they are" liberal democracies". While this is true in the strictly technical sense that each member of the adult population is granted one equally valued vote in elections, the reality is that today's Western nations are not really democracies at all; not at least according to the classical Greek meaning of the term, which defined democracy in a polis like ancient Athens as a system of government based on GENUINELY EQUAL political rights ( e.g. true universal "one vote, one value" suffrage), freedom of speech and a GENUINELY EQUAL opportunity for all citizens to participate directly in the political arena. The US , for example, is actually a text book example of an oligarchy (i.e. a bloated plutocracy ruled by an elite super- wealthy minority), the same applies to other contemporary Western neo-liberal States like the UK and Australia where the doctrine of free-market fundamentalism generates a large disparities in income/wealth in their populations and the rich are essentially the rulers and law-makers.
Dachshund
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Re: Should the West repeal womens' suffrage ?

Post by Dachshund »

What really concerns me is the high percentage ( around 40%) of GDP in a nation like the US that is currently consumed to fund government spending.i'll explain this in more detail in my next post.
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