Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

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Spectrum
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Spectrum »

Hereandnow wrote: January 4th, 2018, 10:29 am
Spectrum:
Buddhism-proper claims the following nihilistic views;
1. There is no intrinsic meaning and purpose of life In the absolute sense.
2. The is no permanent self - anatta
3. Reality is nothingness or emptiness - Sunyata.
But in the relative sense, Buddhism proper claims
1. There is intrinsic meaning and purpose of life in the relative sense.
2. The is an empirical self
3. Reality is somethingness in the empirical sense.
I would like to see some of this unpacked. What does absolute mean? And nothingness? Self? I like to consider myself something of a Buddhist, but these terms muddy the water as they all require disambiguation. A self? This needs analysis. Is it a personality? An empirical self, evolved in the pragmatic dynamics of a society? Is it the Rational self of structured thought and logic? Is a temporally transient self always "in flight" as Sartre put it, that needs deliverance" Is it an abstract self, or a fragmented self (husband, and teacher, and PTA member and so on)?Nothingness? Same kind of questions.

This is why I don't pay much attention to Buddhist metaphysics. Not very helpful; but on the other hand, Buddhism, simply put, the cessation of attachments so allow something profound within to rise up: this is, and has been, far, far ahead of its time.
Absolute in this case meant 'totally unconditional'.

Nothingness [Sunyata] and no true self:
The Buddha taught the doctrine of “dependent arising” (pratityasamutpada) which sees the world as fundamentally interconnected. He also taught that the world is in a constant state of flux, and that there is no true self. The “I” which we experience is in reality the result of the temporary unity of different physical and mental processes (anatta).

Nagarjuna understands the world’s transient and impermanent nature to mean that nothing has its own essence or independent existence. Everything is “empty” (sunyata) in so far as it depends on other things in order to exist. For example, a table can only be said to exist in so far as four pieces of wood are connected to a base. If the legs are taken off, it is no longer a table. Therefore, it has no independent existence.
There is only the empirical self which can be verified empirically by oneself and others intersubjectively.

  • Is it a personality? An empirical self, evolved in the pragmatic dynamics of a society? Is it the Rational self of structured thought and logic? Is a temporally transient self always "in flight" as Sartre put it, that needs deliverance" Is it an abstract self, or a fragmented self (husband, and teacher, and PTA member and so on)?

The empirical self is 'yes' to all the above questions.

There is no permanent self [soul] that survives physical death.

Buddhism is more about 'doing' [Right Action] [Right Concentration] [Right Mindfulness] based right thinking [Right View and Thought], i.e. one must act to rewire the brain for the better to optimize one's well-being against all known constraints.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Synthesis
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Synthesis »

Maxcady10001 wrote: January 3rd, 2018, 8:41 pm Thank you for clarifying. How is it that words do not reflect our apparent reality? Is a reflection also a description, if not, disregard the rest of this and please explain why not?

Also, what is realization? If it is a state without ignorance or desire it is an impossible one, making buddhism also a negation of life, a detesting of what is natural.
Reality is not accessible by the human mind for several reasons. First, perceptually, we do not exist in the present. There is a time lag between the event and the perception of the event. Secondly, as we apply our intellect to what we perceive, we alter what is "real" to our interpretation of what is real, creating our personal reality. As well, each fixed point in the Universe renders a unique perspective. And then there is the notion that all things are in constant flux so what can one know? There are other reasons, as well.

Realization is a state of base perception without interpretation. Ignorance is an intellectual measure, and desire, an emotional attachment.
Maxcady10001
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Maxcady10001 »

If we are flawed perceptually how can the state of realization be achieved, as such a state is not subject to interpretations?
Synthesis
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Synthesis »

Maxcady10001 wrote: January 5th, 2018, 1:58 pm If we are flawed perceptually how can the state of realization be achieved, as such a state is not subject to interpretations?
It can't. Remember, the words are simply an approximation of what it might be. :)

The only way to "understand" is to meditate. It's the best we humans can do.
Spectrum
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Spectrum »

Synthesis wrote: January 5th, 2018, 1:30 pm Reality is not accessible by the human mind for several reasons.
First, perceptually, we do not exist in the present. There is a time lag between the event and the perception of the event.
Secondly, as we apply our intellect to what we perceive, we alter what is "real" to our interpretation of what is real, creating our personal reality. As well, each fixed point in the Universe renders a unique perspective.
And then there is the notion that all things are in constant flux so what can one know?
There are other reasons, as well.

Realization is a state of base perception without interpretation. Ignorance is an intellectual measure, and desire, an emotional attachment.
Why you think reality is not accessible by the human mind is because you have adopted the wrong belief system, i.e. Philosophical Realism;
Wiki wrote:Realism (in philosophy) about a given object is the view that this object exists in reality independently of our conceptual scheme.
In philosophical terms, these objects are ontologically independent of someone's conceptual scheme, perceptions, linguistic practices, beliefs, etc.
As you have stated, there is eternally a time lag or Reality Gap between "the perceiver" and "the perceived."
In this case, what is real to one is merely the processing of sense data in one's mind and what-is-real [supposedly] is out-of-reach to the mind eternally.
If you think carefully, such an idea is actually solipsism, i.e. what is real is only in one's mind [processed sense data] only.

I have always countered Philosophical Realism is not tenable.

What is most realistic are some of the philosophical theories from Philosophical anti-realism.
Within such Philosophical anti-realist theories, the subject's mind is always entangled and interacting with reality-is. In this case there is no separation from a reality independent of the subject, thus no eternal reality-gap.
The subject is a co-creator of reality-is where the subject is part and parcel of.

You may ask, what about the reality-was before subject[s]/humans existed?
There are answers to this question, but note reality-was versus reality-is.

Meanwhile deliberate on the above dilemma of an eternal never realizable reality gap above you have created for yourself in mind.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Hereandnow
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Hereandnow »

Spectrum
Reality is not accessible by the human mind for several reasons. First, perceptually, we do not exist in the present. There is a time lag between the event and the perception of the event. Secondly, as we apply our intellect to what we perceive, we alter what is "real" to our interpretation of what is real, creating our personal reality. As well, each fixed point in the Universe renders a unique perspective. And then there is the notion that all things are in constant flux so what can one know? There are other reasons, as well.
How do you know there is a time lag of this nature?: to conceive of a time lag you must do so "in time," thus your conception itself falls prey to the criticism. To speak of "the present" as if it were somehow beyond time cannot be be conceived when conception itself requires time. It becomes, therefore, metaphysics of the worst kind, the kind that is not simply a narrative, but an impossible narrative.

We alter what is real with our perception? How can you establish a measure for what the Real is based on evidence that is not real, i.e., the everyday world? You could say that the Buddha within reveals itself AS timeless and beyond perception, and you could say that this is simply manifestly true once one discovers the true reality within, but , and this is not deny the mystical experience found in deep meditation, claims about the more real than empirical real "out there" among the rocks and trees and tv sets is not about the inner reality of meditative apprehension that is suggested by the distortions of the Real caused by perception as such. This metaphysical Reality of the things outside of a perceiving mind is, well, a bit of careless metaphysics.

This flux: all things? Sounds like you take true knowledge to be independent of time/flux, if you like. Same thing, one might say, but why not let the Buddhist have time in her nirvana? I can see that it must feel like there is no time, and time does not "pass" before the calm perfection of deep meditation; but on the other hand, nirvana is not nothingness. Further, in order for there to be a joy, there must be an agency to have it,even if that agency is some transcendental ego. How can it be at all even thought of that there is bliss that does not occur in a temporal dimension? Again, saying it is so is easy; but having it make sense is the task of having sensible ideas. And there is no sense in a possibility of anything that is not nothing that is not in time.
Best to conceive of Buddhism and its nirvana in time, though time once the mind is truly still must be altogether uniform.
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Hereandnow
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Hereandnow »

typos. sorry.
Spectrum
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Spectrum »

Hereandnow wrote: January 5th, 2018, 11:51 pm
Spectrum
Reality is not accessible by the human mind for several reasons. First, perceptually, we do not exist in the present. There is a time lag between the event and the perception of the event. Secondly, as we apply our intellect to what we perceive, we alter what is "real" to our interpretation of what is real, creating our personal reality. As well, each fixed point in the Universe renders a unique perspective. And then there is the notion that all things are in constant flux so what can one know? There are other reasons, as well.
How do you know there is a time lag of this nature?: to conceive of a time lag you must do so "in time," thus your conception itself falls prey to the criticism. To speak of "the present" as if it were somehow beyond time cannot be be conceived when conception itself requires time. It becomes, therefore, metaphysics of the worst kind, the kind that is not simply a narrative, but an impossible narrative.

We alter what is real with our perception? How can you establish a measure for what the Real is based on evidence that is not real, i.e., the everyday world? You could say that the Buddha within reveals itself AS timeless and beyond perception, and you could say that this is simply manifestly true once one discovers the true reality within, but , and this is not deny the mystical experience found in deep meditation, claims about the more real than empirical real "out there" among the rocks and trees and tv sets is not about the inner reality of meditative apprehension that is suggested by the distortions of the Real caused by perception as such. This metaphysical Reality of the things outside of a perceiving mind is, well, a bit of careless metaphysics.

This flux: all things? Sounds like you take true knowledge to be independent of time/flux, if you like. Same thing, one might say, but why not let the Buddhist have time in her nirvana? I can see that it must feel like there is no time, and time does not "pass" before the calm perfection of deep meditation; but on the other hand, nirvana is not nothingness. Further, in order for there to be a joy, there must be an agency to have it,even if that agency is some transcendental ego. How can it be at all even thought of that there is bliss that does not occur in a temporal dimension? Again, saying it is so is easy; but having it make sense is the task of having sensible ideas. And there is no sense in a possibility of anything that is not nothing that is not in time.
Best to conceive of Buddhism and its nirvana in time, though time once the mind is truly still must be altogether uniform.
What is quoted above is not my idea.
It is 'Synthesis', in this post,
http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... 12#p301712

I do not agree with the 'time lag' concept as postulated by the Philosophical Realist and its reality which is totally and absolutely independent of the subject's conditions.

Nevertheless I do accept there is an empirical time lag between the perceiver and what-is -perceived. For example, the Sun we perceived is the 9-minutes-ago-Sun not the Sun of the present. The Stars that we see in do exist in real time but what we see are merely billions-of-years-ago-light-waves entering our retina in the present.
In this case I do not consider that-which-is-perceived as something that is absoslutely independent of human conceptions like the Philosophical Realists claim.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Synthesis
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Synthesis »

Spectrum wrote: January 5th, 2018, 11:23 pm
Synthesis wrote: January 5th, 2018, 1:30 pm Reality is not accessible by the human mind for several reasons.
First, perceptually, we do not exist in the present. There is a time lag between the event and the perception of the event.
Secondly, as we apply our intellect to what we perceive, we alter what is "real" to our interpretation of what is real, creating our personal reality. As well, each fixed point in the Universe renders a unique perspective.
And then there is the notion that all things are in constant flux so what can one know?
There are other reasons, as well.

Realization is a state of base perception without interpretation. Ignorance is an intellectual measure, and desire, an emotional attachment.
Why you think reality is not accessible by the human mind is because you have adopted the wrong belief system, i.e. Philosophical Realism;
Wiki wrote:Realism (in philosophy) about a given object is the view that this object exists in reality independently of our conceptual scheme.
In philosophical terms, these objects are ontologically independent of someone's conceptual scheme, perceptions, linguistic practices, beliefs, etc.
As you have stated, there is eternally a time lag or Reality Gap between "the perceiver" and "the perceived."
In this case, what is real to one is merely the processing of sense data in one's mind and what-is-real [supposedly] is out-of-reach to the mind eternally.
If you think carefully, such an idea is actually solipsism, i.e. what is real is only in one's mind [processed sense data] only.

I have always countered Philosophical Realism is not tenable.

What is most realistic are some of the philosophical theories from Philosophical anti-realism.
Within such Philosophical anti-realist theories, the subject's mind is always entangled and interacting with reality-is. In this case there is no separation from a reality independent of the subject, thus no eternal reality-gap.
The subject is a co-creator of reality-is where the subject is part and parcel of.

Meanwhile deliberate on the above dilemma of an eternal never realizable reality gap above you have created for yourself in mind.
Accepting the idea that we can not access Reality allows one to dispense with being concerned about the "whys" and "hows." We can not know why nor how, only "what is" [or as close as possible] because each event is caused by an infinite number of events preceding. Therefore, actual understanding is not possible. And this leads to True understanding [which, of course, is not understanding at all].
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