Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

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Burning ghost
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Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Burning ghost »

I just had a little thought that may produce an introducing discussion.

note: This is a little long winded. Simply read the beginning and end, the rest is simply a scrambling attempt to help you grip the idea if you struggle to understand it.

Maybe nihilism is a kind of opposite to buddhism. By this I mean they appropriate themselves toward ideas of "truth" and "falsehood".

For the nihilist there is the perpetual "truth" of nothing, whilst for the Buddhist there is the perpetual "falsehood" of everything. By the later I mean the buddhist projects life as a cycle of "suffering" which needs to be broken; this can be taken as saying the "suffering" is a "falsehood" from which to move away from. There is direction and intent. For the nihilist we see the same pattern and the same philosophy, of sorts, simply playing out as if to mirror the buddhist philosophical view. By this I mean the nihilist sees life as meaningless, this is an attachment to "truth", yet also adhering as the buddhist does, to the disbelief of material life as "real".

What I find interesting is that the nihilist must have to project themselves toward some highest value of material being, but given that we have no idea of the limitations of high we can "rise up" and live a meaningful and productive life, then the ideal is completely out of our reach and necessarily always held out into the distance of where we are (from here the constant striving is endless, and taken by nihilist as meaningless and by the buddhist as "suffering") The buddhist positions themselves as "away from" the concrete depths of "suffering".

So the nihilist by striving initially toward the truth only sees the falsehood, and the buddhist by striving away from falsehood sees only truth. Ironically what this says, true or not, is that if you "rise up" for a truth you have the abyss below open up into your field of vision, whereas if you "inhabit" the depths you can only "rise up".

The nihilist inhabits life as if it has a truth and therefore sees only falsehood and nothingness, whereas the buddhist inhabits life as a falsehood and therefore sees only truth and meaning.

note: If you are "Buddhist" I am simply referring to the general existential outlook of Buddhism regarding it as a philosophical pursuit rather as a religious doctrine.
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Maxcady10001 »

I see the nihilist philosophy as superior to the buddhist, because the buddhist is judging the value of life by pleasure and displeasure, and as we know, the pleasure paradox rules out the seeking of pleasure, making life meaningless for them. I don't see how someone could reconcile the belief that life is a falsehood, with living. The buddhist paradoxically calls life false while living. The nihilist only rejects any confusion of their reality, only accepting what is apparent to them.
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Synthesis »

The essence of Buddhism has nothing to do with words and their meanings. These symbols only point towards, "The Truth," which dissolves into emptiness upon realization.
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Can you elaborate on your post? I do not know how to address it.
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Hereandnow »

Maxcady10001
The essence of Buddhism has nothing to do with words and their meanings
What about the word 'bliss'? And: I will be the first to agree that language occludes the real. But when it comes to facing meanings, there is in the background of a person a whole body of words and meaning, without which one would be a child, or less. But then agaain, I have heard of Zen yogis who have completely abandoned their social selves and run around chasing butterflies.
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Maxcady10001 »

I didn't say that!! Synthesis said it!
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Hereandnow »

Burning Ghost:
Maybe nihilism is a kind of opposite to buddhism. By this I mean they appropriate themselves toward ideas of "truth" and "falsehood".
I have seen the matter put in logical symbols:

The Nihilist negates all values, e.g.,: ~(P,Q,S,P....)

The Buddhist looks like this: ~(~(P,Q,S,P.....)

The double tilda ends in a logical cancelation. Reminds me of Sextus Empiricus, and the school of Pyrrhonian Skepticism which taught a suspension of belief and knowledge. Essentially just forgetting about it. That's what Buddhists do, or should do; a kind of, who cares?
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Synthesis »

Maxcady10001 wrote: January 3rd, 2018, 6:27 pm Can you elaborate on your post? I do not know how to address it.
Buddhism is the intellectual finger "pointing at the moon." None of the words are intended to be taken literally, as words can not reflect Reality. The words are simply there to encourage seekers to embrace meditation as the most effective path to realization.

The famous Tang dynasty Zen Master, Huang Po, said, "Open your mouth and you have already lost it."
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Thank you for clarifying. How is it that words do not reflect our apparent reality? Is a reflection also a description, if not, disregard the rest of this and please explain why not?
If I say the door is brown, it is apparent to me in the reality I am experiencing that the door is brown. You may say I am only seeing the light that is not absorbed, but this also can be expressed through words. I don't see how a person could have an incommunicable thought or feeling. Even saying something is incommunicable gives another person an idea of what you mean.
Also, what is realization? If it is a state without ignorance or desire it is an impossible one, making buddhism also a negation of life, a detesting of what is natural.
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Burning ghost »

Hereandnow -

I just found it a curious observation that buddhist philosophy looks to the falsehood of reality and nihilism looks to the truth of reality; and by doing so what is revealed is that "meaning" has a bottom to it, yet no highest point. We can quickly bottom out on the idea of no meaning, but we'll never fully embrace meaning and keep on aspiring towards it.

The nihilist approaches reality as having meaning and finds nothing solid enough to hold onto revealing nothing but a gaping abyss below them they are consumed by. The buddhist - talking as philosophically positioned - approaches reality as if it doesn't exist, or rather as an illusion, revealing a meaning given through the denial of material meaning.

I kind of regard the nihilistic attitude as a good first step. That is as long as you can manage to take your eyes of the abyss for long enough and pursue an "upward" course. If the buddhist would do an about turn I am not quite sure it would be a pleasant thing to see, and t would likely be deeply sociopathic and destructive.

Max -

There was a reason I didn't post this in "religious" section. Can you spot why? ;)
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Hereandnow »

I guess, Burning ghost, because you don't capitalize 'buddhism'. A zen gesture?

I think they just ignore most of what is usually called real. It is because they have withdrawn their attachments from things, thereby making things meaningless. No meaning, no existence? There is something to this. After all: imagine a world of an absence of caring. No reason to look up, or out; or to look at all.
Then again, nirvana is certainly no nothing. It is much more than my knowledge and appreciation of my morning corn flakes.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Burning ghost »

I remove the capitals because I don't wish to conflate the philosophical perspective with the mystical/religious perspective. I don't write Realism or Nihilism, therefore why write Buddhism when I am looking only at these philosophically.

I was looking at both views as approaches that handle existential questions in a similar, yet opposite, manner.
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Spectrum »

Nihil = nothing, and there is range of philosophical ideas related to 'nihilism' of which the common one is below;
Wiki wrote:Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.

I presume the above applies to this OP.

Based on the two-truths principle of Buddhism-proper, Buddhism is both nihilistic and non-nihilistic in different senses.

Buddhism-proper claims the following nihilistic views;
  • 1. There is no intrinsic meaning and purpose of life In the absolute sense.
    2. The is no permanent self - anatta
    3. Reality is nothingness or emptiness - Sunyata.
But in the relative sense, Buddhism proper claims
  • 1. There is intrinsic meaning and purpose of life in the relative sense.
    2. The is an empirical self
    3. Reality is somethingness in the empirical sense.
The above two views are not contradictory because P and not-P are in different senses.

What Buddhism-proper advocates is for an enlightened state where one do not cling to the extreme of either of the above, but rather practices the Middle-Path whilst toggling from one end to another at times.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Burning ghost »

Spectrum -

Yes, I meant that kind of nihilistic view. I was generally thinking that nihilism comes about by assuming there is some intrinsic meaning and pursuing with fervor this idea only to find itself dangling over a yawning abyss. Whereas the "buddhist" mindset establishes its position by beginning with the knowledge of the abyssal existential chasm and sees the wisdom in working "upwards," so to speak.

It was just something that struck me the other day as worth making a post about (after watching some clips from The Big Lebowski.) See what I mean? Not sure what there is to discuss about this, but thought I would throw it out there :)
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Re: Nihilism and buddhist philosophy

Post by Hereandnow »

Spectrum:
Buddhism-proper claims the following nihilistic views;
1. There is no intrinsic meaning and purpose of life In the absolute sense.
2. The is no permanent self - anatta
3. Reality is nothingness or emptiness - Sunyata.
But in the relative sense, Buddhism proper claims
1. There is intrinsic meaning and purpose of life in the relative sense.
2. The is an empirical self
3. Reality is somethingness in the empirical sense.
I would like to see some of this unpacked. What does absolute mean? And nothingness? Self? I like to consider myself something of a Buddhist, but these terms muddy the water as they all require disambiguation. A self? This needs analysis. Is it a personality? An empirical self, evolved in the pragmatic dynamics of a society? Is it the Rational self of structured thought and logic? Is a temporally transient self always "in flight" as Sartre put it, that needs deliverance" Is it an abstract self, or a fragmented self (husband, and teacher, and PTA member and so on)?Nothingness? Same kind of questions.

This is why I don't pay much attention to Buddhist metaphysics. Not very helpful; but on the other hand, Buddhism, simply put, the cessation of attachments so allow something profound within to rise up: this is, and has been, far, far ahead of its time.
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