Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Burning ghost
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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belindi/steve -

About the "moral relativism," I should've been more precise because in that particular chapter Geertz uses the term "normative" so I was implying normative moral relativism.

Even so I don't adhere to this as being explicitly conducive to moral relativism although it can easily be interpreted in such a manner. Over all I think Geertz has been careful not to lump anything into any particular category by what I've read up to now. I would argue that just because something is "customary" it does not mean it holds no empirical significance, only that the underlying "meaning" is not exposed to the directly to the person partaking in the customary norms.

My personal view is that there is a core of undisputable moral "truths", yet they are necessarily manifest within a less well defined amalgam of general human behaviors and interactions. So in my eyes the common term of "moral relativism" thrown around I tend to push towards being "explorative moralism," part solid and part fluid. The "solid" part would be the Jungian proposition of the collective unconscious and archetypes.

There is a very interesting story about how people produce and then believe in their own stories. The "confessions" are often brought about to dupe the tribe/community into believing something in order to cover up this or that weakness. There are numerous instances Geertz gives, which shows a certain inclination for him to push home some of his ideas with somewhat anecdotal accounts (which is the general bane of "anthropology" as a field of interest and something Geertz (and the two other below) all make explicit and warn against from the outset.

Belindi -

I am reading three in combination and I am very pleased with my choices! If you can I recommend you do the same, or similar:

1) Structural Anthropology, by Levi-Strauss
2) The Sacred and The Profane, by Eliade
3) as noted above.

I chose these three because they seems to have slightly different perspectives and approaches.

Eliade is more specialized in religious anthropology and someone I've found extremely useful. The chronological order is Eliade, Levi-Strauss, then Geertz. "Myth and Meaning" is another by Levi-Strauss I plan to order in my next batch of books and list of books by Eliade is pretty large too - of all of them Eliade's style is quite dry. The benefit is his work generally just exposes facts more than personal interpretation (although this one SAP, does seem more flavoured by personal views than the other work of his I've read "Shamanism" which is a sweeping collection of reports of "shamanism" from around the globe - dull in its style, but rich in content.
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Belindi wrote: February 20th, 2018, 6:24 am Burning Ghost, I just bought "The Interpretation of Cultures" by Clifford Geertz. Thanks for the recommendation.
I also found the following quotation among Amazon's recommended books
The need and capacity of men and women to relate socially lies at the heart of Durkheim's exploration, in which religion embodies the beliefs that shape our moral universe.
I thought this was especially relevant to connection between scientific beliefs such as they may be, and religion.
I should emphasize that Geertz and Levi-Strauss offer more broader reaching views of anthropology as a whole (more so Levi-Strauss I'd say up to now), whilst Eliade is very specifically investigating "religion." I found it quite strange to hear Geertz asking for someone to research this or that area when it appears Eliade had done the work he is asking for in this book some decades before?

Also, I am truly baffled by the lack of reference to Jung by Levi-Strauss considering he has pretty much a whole chapter dedicated to "psychoanalysis" and only briefly drops Freud's name, whilst missing out Jung even though a lot of what he writes about myth and symbolism seems to echo directly from what Jung said!?!? (I still cannot quite get my head around that fact! I can only assume there was some willful hatred or political motive?)
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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How much control have any societies had over themselves in the long term? Societies tend to follow predictable patterns:

Most people, if they had the chance, would rather not cram into crowded, noisy, dirty, fiercely competitive, car-saturated cities so as to make a living. They would prefer not to live under the spectre of nuclear winter. They would rather not overpopulate to perilous proportions. We would rather have local creeks and streams that were clean and/or still running. We would rather that our defence budgets did not soak up a huge proportion of each nation's wealth. We'd rather that there be less inequality and attendant suffering, more sincerity and less manipulativeness in the public conversation, and so forth.

I'm not sure that en masse, humanity has much more control over what it does than the blue-green algae that acted as an agent of change during the Permian extinction event.
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Greta wrote: February 21st, 2018, 8:05 pm How much control have any societies had over themselves in the long term? Societies tend to follow predictable patterns:

Most people, if they had the chance, would rather not cram into crowded, noisy, dirty, fiercely competitive, car-saturated cities so as to make a living. They would prefer not to live under the spectre of nuclear winter. They would rather not overpopulate to perilous proportions. We would rather have local creeks and streams that were clean and/or still running. We would rather that our defence budgets did not soak up a huge proportion of each nation's wealth. We'd rather that there be less inequality and attendant suffering, more sincerity and less manipulativeness in the public conversation, and so forth.

I'm not sure that en masse, humanity has much more control over what it does than the blue-green algae that acted as an agent of change during the Permian extinction event.
In a vacuum? Yes. But no man is an island. The difference between what you posted and what folks actually do is accounted in large part by advertising. Advertising works, that's why corporations pay $3 million a commercial for an ad in the Super Bowl.

If the 1% can convince the destitute to vote for candidates that are going to give the wealthy ludicrous tax breaks while cutting back on Medicaid and Food Stamps and Aid to Single Mothers, you know that not only can sheep be led, but they want to be led.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Sy Borg »

LuckyR wrote: February 22nd, 2018, 6:13 pm
Greta wrote: February 21st, 2018, 8:05 pm How much control have any societies had over themselves in the long term? Societies tend to follow predictable patterns:

Most people, if they had the chance, would rather not cram into crowded, noisy, dirty, fiercely competitive, car-saturated cities so as to make a living. They would prefer not to live under the spectre of nuclear winter. They would rather not overpopulate to perilous proportions. We would rather have local creeks and streams that were clean and/or still running. We would rather that our defence budgets did not soak up a huge proportion of each nation's wealth. We'd rather that there be less inequality and attendant suffering, more sincerity and less manipulativeness in the public conversation, and so forth.

I'm not sure that en masse, humanity has much more control over what it does than the blue-green algae that acted as an agent of change during the Permian extinction event.
In a vacuum? Yes. But no man is an island. The difference between what you posted and what folks actually do is accounted in large part by advertising. Advertising works, that's why corporations pay $3 million a commercial for an ad in the Super Bowl.

If the 1% can convince the destitute to vote for candidates that are going to give the wealthy ludicrous tax breaks while cutting back on Medicaid and Food Stamps and Aid to Single Mothers, you know that not only can sheep be led, but they want to be led.
Lucky, you are pointing to a modern mechanism to explain a phenomenon that reaches back to ancient history. The poor were suffering in Rome just as the poor suffer today in modern society. Why did they gravitate there? Why didn't the many destitute and suffering in Rome join forces to form supportive groups and occupy free land away from the hurly burly?

Broadly, humans crave privacy, space and freedom but are compelled to form massive congregations that severely inhibit all three. I expect that those who were compelled to form large groups tend to be the most likely to pass on their genes since large groups tend to out-compete smaller ones. So we have inherited this compulsion, along with many others.
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Greta wrote: February 22nd, 2018, 8:44 pm
LuckyR wrote: February 22nd, 2018, 6:13 pm

In a vacuum? Yes. But no man is an island. The difference between what you posted and what folks actually do is accounted in large part by advertising. Advertising works, that's why corporations pay $3 million a commercial for an ad in the Super Bowl.

If the 1% can convince the destitute to vote for candidates that are going to give the wealthy ludicrous tax breaks while cutting back on Medicaid and Food Stamps and Aid to Single Mothers, you know that not only can sheep be led, but they want to be led.
Lucky, you are pointing to a modern mechanism to explain a phenomenon that reaches back to ancient history. The poor were suffering in Rome just as the poor suffer today in modern society. Why did they gravitate there? Why didn't the many destitute and suffering in Rome join forces to form supportive groups and occupy free land away from the hurly burly?

Broadly, humans crave privacy, space and freedom but are compelled to form massive congregations that severely inhibit all three. I expect that those who were compelled to form large groups tend to be the most likely to pass on their genes since large groups tend to out-compete smaller ones. So we have inherited this compulsion, along with many others.
While the ancients didn't use the term advertising, they too were well versed in the art of selling the idea of material wealth over privacy, space and freedom. If the rabble seek material goods, they need to make money. Naturally the opportunities to do so is in cities. The trade-off is made.
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Privacy seems to go hand in hand with the creation of civilization. Once a family has land then privacy becomes an issue. Maybe it would be easier to distinguish if we used "society" and "community" as two differentiated terms here?

There is something of a relation here to what I've been reading of Eliade regarding humans cosmological view and how the "house" manifests this idea on a microscopic level ... I think this thread has already gone on long enough so I'll say no more.

Steve (and anyone else who cares?) -

Any chance of creating a fresh thread to build of what has been discussed here? I don't wish to halt the conversation, merely consolidate what has been said and shift the focus as you so please (or anyone else for that matter?)

For the feminine aspect we could look at the changes in society in a historical sense, for a more broader view look at how civilizations and societies deal with inequality (from a family basis up to the city, national or even global scale.) And I think the contrasts between the microscopic and macroscopic are essentially where the biggest problems of political life lie; from family to family and nation to nation.
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Burning Ghost, thanks for your special interest in the social anthropological view of changes in society . I note your recommendations however I'd feel overcome if I took it upon myself to study all of those authors simultaneously without the help and guidance of a tutor. I will think I'm doing well to read my Geertz book when it arrives from Amazon. Anyway I already own "The Savage Mind" by Levi-Strauss. Eliade was quoted in my undergraduate course so I do respect Eliade as well the other two. I am not qualified to compare any of them but am interested in the comparisons that you make.

You wrote(above to Steve):
There is something of a relation here to what I've been reading of Eliade regarding humans cosmological view and how the "house" manifests this idea on a microscopic level ... I think this thread has already gone on long enough so I'll say no more.
Do you mean that Eliade, and you, hold that 'culture' applies to families as it does to societies? If so I agree.' Culture' applies also to some brainy dogs such as Border collies that specialise in domesticated herding, and pass down not only inherited instincts but also their specialised knowledge to their pups if their pups are exposed to the examples from their elders.

Human being are seldom artificially bred but our nurture plays a larger part in our cultures of belief than do cultures of any dogs. Language aids nurture in this. Therefore you are right, Ghost, that a degree of historical determinism is relevant to ideas such as womens' rights. I guess that history of ideas would be the area you recommend?

I watched a TV programme about an incident of illegal 'honour' killing in Pakistan. So-called 'honour' killing is perhaps an example of family culture which is extremely inbred and resistant to change.
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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I didn't mean that. It was a subtle reference to the book The Sacred and The Profane (emphasis on Chapter 1, Sacred Space and Making the World Sacred), in which Eliade points to the loci of humans in space and how the family home reflects the cosmological macro into the micro "house".

Examples of "tree of life", or more commonly termed "Axis Mundi" around which the physical house is a symbolic representation of the universe (cosmos) and acts as heirphantic symbol on some level. So when Greta talked of "privacy" I was more taken to the view of the boundaries of territory, the isolation of family from other family, as being a reflection of humans "craving" to symbolically represent their "cosmological" ideas rather than craving "privacy." The home encapsulates a simplified version of the broader "cosmological idea of the human individual.

At a stretch we could view the constructed shelter as being one meant as a combined mythological and practical necessity. Shelter from rain and then "mirror" or natural "caves" or "trees". This is highlighted in things Eliade points out about the use of "magical staffs" and such ... not going into detail here though.

As for "culture" and family ... I am generally interested in the individual psychological level and how it is projected into the social sphere. I don't think it is tangible to separate the unconscious from the cultural pattern, nor do I think either has meaning without the other. The only prevalent feature of humanity is our ongoing engagement with setting the World up as being understood by way of dichotomies, simply because it is more manageable and also because we can then apply logical systems; that work on an obviously useful level for the development of natural science and general "knowledge."

Everything is worth a look. I am just trying to equate the minute details with an over all pattern. History of ideas? Why not? First I'd probably have to spend the best half of a life time trying to understand what is meant by "History of ideas", which I believe I already have, and still found general language somewhat inadequate to frame the "meaning."
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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LuckyR wrote: February 23rd, 2018, 2:42 am
Greta wrote: February 22nd, 2018, 8:44 pm
Lucky, you are pointing to a modern mechanism to explain a phenomenon that reaches back to ancient history. The poor were suffering in Rome just as the poor suffer today in modern society. Why did they gravitate there? Why didn't the many destitute and suffering in Rome join forces to form supportive groups and occupy free land away from the hurly burly?

Broadly, humans crave privacy, space and freedom but are compelled to form massive congregations that severely inhibit all three. I expect that those who were compelled to form large groups tend to be the most likely to pass on their genes since large groups tend to out-compete smaller ones. So we have inherited this compulsion, along with many others.
While the ancients didn't use the term advertising, they too were well versed in the art of selling the idea of material wealth over privacy, space and freedom. If the rabble seek material goods, they need to make money. Naturally the opportunities to do so is in cities. The trade-off is made.
That's the thing - there's not much choice. To lead an assuredly poor lifestyle in the boondocks or risk disaster in the city for the opportunities to lead a better life? Even then, over the long term those who choose to live outside of the fold will tend to do less well than city dwellers, thus rural populations have been shrinking for some time now.

As I say, en masse we humans are compelled to do things we would rather not do - and then we go on philosophy forums to excoriate "wicked" humanity for its wrongdoings ...
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Greta wrote:
That's the thing - there's not much choice. To lead an assuredly poor lifestyle in the boondocks or risk disaster in the city for the opportunities to lead a better life? Even then, over the long term those who choose to live outside of the fold will tend to do less well than city dwellers, thus rural populations have been shrinking for some time now.

As I say, en masse we humans are compelled to do things we would rather not do - and then we go on philosophy forums to excoriate "wicked" humanity for its wrongdoings ...
Poor people as a class can tolerate a lot in both rural slum and city slum. What from time to time they cannot tolerate is blatant and gross inequality. Think Marie Antoinette and all them. Pace of change has quickened. My guess is that the rise of women's rights since the Suffragettes is a sign and a symptom of global political change which does not depend upon local strong women like the skilled cotton weavers of 19th centy Lancashire,the medieval chatelaines, or the armed frontier women of the American push to the West. The modern power of women shows how equality is becoming affiliated with liberty.

People like Hitler, Trump, and assorted white- collar big criminals are in the public limelight and will be disempowered. I'm not saying that the future is secure, as the devil goes roaring about all over the place and cannot die.
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Belindi wrote: February 24th, 2018, 4:52 am Greta wrote:
That's the thing - there's not much choice. To lead an assuredly poor lifestyle in the boondocks or risk disaster in the city for the opportunities to lead a better life? Even then, over the long term those who choose to live outside of the fold will tend to do less well than city dwellers, thus rural populations have been shrinking for some time now.

As I say, en masse we humans are compelled to do things we would rather not do - and then we go on philosophy forums to excoriate "wicked" humanity for its wrongdoings ...
Poor people as a class can tolerate a lot in both rural slum and city slum. What from time to time they cannot tolerate is blatant and gross inequality. Think Marie Antoinette and all them. Pace of change has quickened. My guess is that the rise of women's rights since the Suffragettes is a sign and a symptom of global political change which does not depend upon local strong women like the skilled cotton weavers of 19th centy Lancashire,the medieval chatelaines, or the armed frontier women of the American push to the West. The modern power of women shows how equality is becoming affiliated with liberty.

People like Hitler, Trump, and assorted white- collar big criminals are in the public limelight and will be disempowered. I'm not saying that the future is secure, as the devil goes roaring about all over the place and cannot die.
Nonetheless, Belinda, the fact remains that we would really all prefer much more space and freedom, but we were originally compelled, and then pressured, to congregate in uncomfortably and annoying large groups.

This is the secret of humanity's success, noting that progress is said to be a "genius to genius process", so large populations increase the available brainpower, with women's rights and the synergies of cooperation amplifying that empowerment. However, success and progress are not necessarily comfortable or enjoyable, so we continue to cram in like sardines as our multinationals and National GDP-focused politicians continue unbalanced immigration policies that lack concomitant infrastructure development.
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Greta, I myself am an introvert and I prefer lonely spaces around me to a lot of people in that space. I have put much effort and planning into making my own garden lie hidden from public view. I do notice that some people seem to enjoy congregating for the sake of congregating and some people feel disoriented and confused in the countryside.So I am not so sure that we would all prefer much more space and freedom. Did you see the existentialism theme on the other website?

My instincts are like yours to prefer space and freedom. Apart from being a fan of efficient infrastructure regarding engineering provisions of water, air, transport, good food, pollution control, public health and so on I know nothing about Australian politics and damn little about politics in Europe so I cannot comment about political parties except in a general way. I'd appreciate any info especially if it is simple enough for me to understand.

Here is what you wrote on Feb 21st:
Most people, if they had the chance, would rather not cram into crowded, noisy, dirty, fiercely competitive, car-saturated cities so as to make a living. They would prefer not to live under the spectre of nuclear winter. They would rather not overpopulate to perilous proportions. We would rather have local creeks and streams that were clean and/or still running. We would rather that our defence budgets did not soak up a huge proportion of each nation's wealth. We'd rather that there be less inequality and attendant suffering, more sincerity and less manipulativeness in the public conversation, and so forth.

I'm not sure that en masse, humanity has much more control over what it does than the blue-green algae that acted as an agent of change during the Permian extinction event.
Nobody could seriously disagree with your first paragraph. I am as much of a pessimist as you as to the matter of your second paragraph. Insofar as I'm religious the essence of religion is to fight against our ultimate destruction. In this connection I see the future of urbanised nations is for us to plan for changes and plan so that individuals are favoured : not corporations or other greedy elites.
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Belindi wrote: February 24th, 2018, 6:12 amGreta, I myself am an introvert and I prefer lonely spaces around me to a lot of people in that space. I have put much effort and planning into making my own garden lie hidden from public view. I do notice that some people seem to enjoy congregating for the sake of congregating and some people feel disoriented and confused in the countryside.So I am not so sure that we would all prefer much more space and freedom. Did you see the existentialism theme on the other website?

My instincts are like yours to prefer space and freedom. Apart from being a fan of efficient infrastructure regarding engineering provisions of water, air, transport, good food, pollution control, public health and so on I know nothing about Australian politics and damn little about politics in Europe so I cannot comment about political parties except in a general way. I'd appreciate any info especially if it is simple enough for me to understand.
It's a general principle, Belinda, where immigration boosts GDP. It can also, if not handled properly, increase national GDP while reducing GDP per person. Therein lies the politicians' conflict of interest - giving the impression of inducing growth and pleasing their customer-hungry multinational governance partners versus their citizens' standards of living. Guess which one wins?

It's true that many like to congregate, especially the young. However, even for them the traffic, queues, pollution, cost of living and increasing governmental and corporate intrusion will become wearing. Yet breaking from the masses seems an unthinkable upheaval for many.
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Belindi »

Thanks, Greta, but I not sure I understand. I'd have thought that the quality of immigrants makes a lot of difference to GDP either up or down. Maybe it is the case that nearly all immigrants are as a matter of fact young and fit due to the exigencies of emigrating . This was the case for instance during the urbanisation that followed industrialisation in both the UK and in West Africa. It was the younger and more able who went to the new industrial towns. Is it this pattern , industrialisation >>>>urbanisation, that invariably affects what we call developing nations and nations that accept foreign nationals?

The new urban workers need to be treated to well engineered standards of welfare otherwise they will not be such good workers especially in this dangerous, uncertain, and high-tech age. Therefore industries that encourage strong and cooperative workers will thrive better, won't they? The upshot from inefficient management which seeks to increase capital investment while failing to invest in worker cooperation is ultimate failure. I would have thought that governments that are bought by capitalists (such as the American NRA) are doomed to fail as are all criminals.
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