Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Dlaw
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw » January 16th, 2018, 4:53 pm

Greta wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 4:28 pm
Dachshund believes that it's postmodernist to posit the genders as equal - because men are obviously so superior.

The irony is that the only way misogynists and racists like Dachshund will be able to find a relationship is if they choose an Asian bride, who are more inclined than western women to humour their husband's delusions for the sake of security. Western women generally would not tolerate someone with such attitudes.
Of course, he buries his actual argument in pseudo-intellectual artifice. The argument itself is like an old, cardboard placard from the Soviet Union, retrieved from a dump. Literally, you go to a big collection of intellectual refuse, pick up the shiniest bit of trash, build an Alt-Right picture frame and then try to call it art.

He's certainly not going to start out his argument with "women are provably inferior in the following ways, therefore all feminism is unnatural and wrong". Meanwhile the evidence that women cause problems is small and the evidence that men cause problems is something akin to the definition of "problems". Men are responsible for roughly ALL social calamities to which one could reasonably assign responsibility by gender.

Judaka
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Judaka » January 16th, 2018, 5:43 pm

Judaka, this strikes me as exactly the same level in which others were engaging. I see no battles of evidence vs. evidence in your posts. These are generalities at this point because we're not even agreeing on those. For example:
Are you serious? You give us 1 line of complete nonsense and you want me in reply to give you a detailed evidence-based explanation about the history of democracy? Even if my position wasn't that debating you is worthless I wouldn't invest that much time making an argument to someone so lazy.
I was talking about male mortality rates vs female mortality rates. Look again.
What the statistics show is that male mortality rate is decreasing at a faster rate than female morality rate, I don't even know what planet you're on.
As for employee reliability, here's one chart:


The latest year 2015 in this chart, doesn't even show a difference...
Finally, as to the Berkeley paper: you might try actually reading what you're citing before you spout off about "crap". That Berkeley paper makes my point for me.
I gave you the Berkeley paper here's what I said when I gave it to you:
Worker Reliability?? Don't know what you even mean but show me where it is: http://irle.berkeley.edu/files/2006/Are ... orkers.pdf
I don't even know what you're talking about with worker reliability, worker productivity? worker attendance rates? job turn over rate? I'm glad the Berkeley paper proved your... point, I was expecting some quotes from it and an argument along side it but I guess jeering at me is what I should have expected anyway.

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Greta
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Greta » January 16th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Dlaw, I appreciate the support, but I've known enough evil and/or violent women, and seen enough nasty types in politics, to not see us through those same rose coloured glasses. While males certainly contribute the lion's share of violence to societies, we are ultimately human - dual in nature, both male and female being irrevocable and essential parts.

As physical strength becomes less important in society due to mechanisation, men's dominance reduces. Eskimo societies, where most food is hunted, are patriarchal. In some African tribes, where most of food is gathered, there is gender equality.

You could say that men - in tiring of physical toil enough to build labour-saving machines - sowed the seeds of their own partial redundancy. The upshot is that the genders are equivalent, as opposed to "equal" (who's doing the measurements?). Ideally we in the west will resist the neocon push back to patriarchy and will continue to largely live together without much discrimination. Feminism - or at least the move towards greater gender equality - is an obvious natural progression in modern, mechanised societies.

I'm still curious to know which patriot group Dachshund is associated with.

Dlaw
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw » January 16th, 2018, 7:40 pm

Judaka wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 5:43 pm
Judaka, this strikes me as exactly the same level in which others were engaging. I see no battles of evidence vs. evidence in your posts. These are generalities at this point because we're not even agreeing on those. For example:
Are you serious? You give us 1 line of complete nonsense and you want me in reply to give you a detailed evidence-based explanation about the history of democracy? Even if my position wasn't that debating you is worthless I wouldn't invest that much time making an argument to someone so lazy.
I was talking about male mortality rates vs female mortality rates. Look again.
What the statistics show is that male mortality rate is decreasing at a faster rate than female morality rate, I don't even know what planet you're on.

This planet: https://www.cmu.edu/CSR/case_studies/wo ... onger.html

Male mortality rates are higher for almost every age category. I did not make a point about the rate of change of mortality rates, but in the U.S. , I think you're wrong on that, too.
As for employee reliability, here's one chart:


The latest year 2015 in this chart, doesn't even show a difference...


Read it again.

Turnover is consistently higher for men. It's especially obvious if you drill down to the age ranges.
Finally, as to the Berkeley paper: you might try actually reading what you're citing before you spout off about "crap". That Berkeley paper makes my point for me.
I gave you the Berkeley paper here's what I said when I gave it to you:
Worker Reliability?? Don't know what you even mean but show me where it is: http://irle.berkeley.edu/files/2006/Are ... orkers.pdf
I don't even know what you're talking about with worker reliability, worker productivity? worker attendance rates? job turn over rate? I'm glad the Berkeley paper proved your... point, I was expecting some quotes from it and an argument along side it but I guess jeering at me is what I should have expected anyway.
The Berkeley paper showed clearly that women are more productive because they cost less per work unit due to the gender gap in pay.

The two measures we've seen - turnover and productivity - consistently show that women are better, cheaper workers.

I think the onus is now on you to demonstrate otherwise.

Dlaw
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw » January 16th, 2018, 7:45 pm

Greta wrote:
January 16th, 2018, 5:53 pm
Dlaw, I appreciate the support, but I've known enough evil and/or violent women, and seen enough nasty types in politics, to not see us through those same rose coloured glasses. While males certainly contribute the lion's share of violence to societies, we are ultimately human - dual in nature, both male and female being irrevocable and essential parts.

As physical strength becomes less important in society due to mechanisation, men's dominance reduces.
I'm not sure that physical strength ever created a net positive productivity for men over women, especially when you consider the huge negative value of behaviors associated ALMOST exclusively with men.

I'm not suggesting that women are saints, believe me. What I am suggesting is that an anti-feminist worldview requires blinding oneself to the higly predictive correlation between maleness and destructuve anti-social behavior. Women, given an opportunity, do not, ever, in any society, engage in the same destructive behaviors as men nor any other behaviors as destructive.

That's just the demographic fact and it shows no signs of changing that I know of.

Burning ghost
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Burning ghost » January 16th, 2018, 9:05 pm

Dlaw -

I was talking in broader strokes about "minorities" and exploring the OP.

I have to admit I do agree that emancipation and suffragette movements certainly coincided. I think both were induced by the general progression of political systems, global knowledge and the beginning of a global community brought about by scientific ideas and technological advantages. Not to mention the effects of various revolutions which undoubtedly led to the masses having more political clout over all.

It is not "silly." I was looking at the role of "voting" in society. Such an exploration would contribute to exploring why it was that men came to be able to vote and women were left behind. Let us not forget that many suffragettes ceased taking part in the movement once it succeeded in getting them the vote (the primary role.) I am always inclined to look at the broader field of interest rather than get completely myopic about any particular facet of society pulling all the strings. The freedoms of women in society has coincided with the general increase of the freedoms of all.

I see you've revealed you are a stay at home dad. Good for you! I can certainly understand you wanting to rile against sexual stereotypes. I think the biggest adjustment between the sexes is due to our huge similarities in many areas of interest (but slightly skewed one way or the other at each end of the bell-curve) and the larger difference of sheer brute force (which no doubt contributes to certain life-style choices and likely are the cause of the differences in behavior and general life interests.)
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Burning ghost
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Burning ghost » January 16th, 2018, 11:53 pm

This is pretty amusing. Channel 4 interview with Jordan Peterson ... ENJOY:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54
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Burning ghost
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Burning ghost » January 17th, 2018, 12:08 am

Posted this elsewhere, but it does touch on the 10 to 1 ratio of male murderers compared to female murderers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc3p9G47VJ4

I will comment on the race issue in other thread.
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Steve3007
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Steve3007 » January 17th, 2018, 4:16 am

Going down this route of pointing out how much more destructive men are, on average, than women will simply invite the assertion that men are also more constructive. It just feeds into this pointless narrative of men as active and women as passive. It's needlessly divisive. I agree with Greta on this one in pointing out that nobody, male or female, is a saint or a devil. We're all individual human beings with individual characteristics, and we're all, equally, in this together. We try to solve the world's problems together or not at all.

Burning ghost
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Burning ghost » January 17th, 2018, 4:35 am

Steve -

Of course. These things interest me though. We're far better off excepting certain differences than pretending they don't exist; only then can we reach a position where we can ask why they are the way they are and provide solid, irrefutable evidence rather than simply espousing opinions.

Facts cannot be disputed, they can only be refined. If they are refined enough and held alongside various other facts then we can perhaps arrive at a better over all area of how society is structured. It's complicated, that is why it is of direct interest to me and many others.

Peterson in the above video expresses VERY clearly that it is silly to take one piece of evidence and run with it without bothering to ask "why?" If the "why?" question doesn't serve the agenda of the ideologue it is usually dropped very quickly so they can move onto to ever more unilateral statements that gloss over any real approach to refinement of understanding.

Men are more aggressive. That is a fact. It is not social conditioning, and neither does this mean social conditioning play no part in general human aggression. We cannot eradicate biological mechanisms, and to suppress them will quite obviously not be a healthy choice either. Slow and steady she goes, where she leads nobody knows ... we're part of natures story, be proud and do what you imagine is best.

The question then comes down to how do we know what is best? It makes sense to look for facts and figure out things from there.

If someone was to assert that men are more constructive I'd slap them down with hard cold facts. Sure, there is evidence to favour such an argument, but there is evidence to favour practically any argument. The point is to build a full picture based on the facts, not supply a picture and then look for facts to fit it.

One argument I can put forward against individual personality traits (which are pretty good indicators) is how they play out in group settings and how they compliment each other. There is also the difficulties of accounting for social influences on various personality traits. This is why scientists work with large samples and take into account as many factors as they can within these samples.
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Judaka
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Judaka » January 17th, 2018, 4:56 am

Male mortality rates are higher for almost every age category. I did not make a point about the rate of change of mortality rates, but in the U.S. , I think you're wrong on that, too.
I'm struggling here, you weren't making a point that mortality rates are responsible for why women are challenging the dominance of men? I accept mortality rates are higher for men but they always have been, certainly in the 1960s they were even higher then they are today. I no longer understand why you're talking about mortality rates.
Turnover is consistently higher for men. It's especially obvious if you drill down to the age ranges.
I'll remind you that I am really challenging your way of debating and thinking and not your actual argument which I don't even deem worthy of discussing. You haven't even made an argument for why the turnover rate is the way that it is, nor an argument for why that demonstrates a disadvantage for men. The turnover rate for all I know, demonstrates men are constantly seeking better working conditions while women are settling for less than they deserve, the statistic is not backing up any argument you've made. Reliability is only an advantage in the specific contexts where employers expects unreliability from a sex and don't hire them into desirable jobs for that reason.

You antagonised me by telling me it's my fault that you don't listen to arguments or reason which is the only reason I'm still talking to you in this thread. You haven't accepted or replied to any of my criticism, your evidence is insubstantial for your arguments or non-existent and you only reply to what you believe is best suited to make me look like a fool. I have yet to see any indication of self-awareness or taking responsibility for errors you make either, it's just fighting back and fighting back endlessly. We could debate for another year and you would still find a way to defend every action, divert all responsibility and remain true to your initial premises regardless of what goes on. It's not even about "if you don't change your view to my view then you're stubborn" but that you're not even engaging with criticism or evidence. It's just throwing back my criticism at me and defending yourself no matter what.
The Berkeley paper showed clearly that women are more productive because they cost less per work unit due to the gender gap in pay.

The two measures we've seen - turnover and productivity - consistently show that women are better, cheaper workers.

I think the onus is now on you to demonstrate otherwise.
What's that got to do with worker reliability? I'm not of the position that men are better workers than women and honestly I find the whole argument really stupid. There are so many factors that matter more than gender, anyone who hires based on gender is a complete moron. My point is that you first decide your general argument, which is that society needs to adopt more feminine traits and reduce masculinity and then from there, find evidence to support that. I'm glad the berkley paper that I linked you helps your argument but I'm just proving my point that you don't really care about the facts. You suck up evidence you think helps you without thinking it through and reject evidence against it without considering it. Ultimately there's nothing for someone talking with you to agree to disagree or just be lambasted by a smug idiot. That's the only thing I've attempted to demonstrate.

I'm looking to be proven wrong but you actually ignore everything I say except for things you clearly feel you have the ability to prove me wrong on, you can't see how that would be dull for anyone debating you and misleading in terms of the credibility of your argument?

Steve3007
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Steve3007 » January 17th, 2018, 5:20 am

BG:

OK, I take your point. Clearly there are differences between men and women and you're interesting in considering those differences.

Judaka
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Judaka » January 17th, 2018, 9:52 am

As for employee reliability, here's one chart:

https://www.sap.com/integrated-reports/ ... ender.html
Dlaw I took a brief look at this and assumed I was looking at some kind of data collection site and this accounted for a decent sample size, it's actually a report released by a clearly, rather ethically concerned German company that recorded some statistics about the less than 80,000 people they employ. Are you serious? Can you tell me seriously that you didn't just google this the moment you were asked to back up your crap without even really looking at it? It barely even proves your point and it's probably the most biased evidence you could have provided, one company, in a particular industry, that is clearly not a reliable source.

You are the prime example of the degeneracy of my generation, it's clear you consider yourself an enlightened educator, fearsome debater and so on but you're so lost. If you spent half as much time developing your ideas as you did telling others what to think, you might have figured out something worthwhile to teach people by now, rather than ranting first and then finding random sites that support your arguments. If you can find the courage to get real for a second, I'd like to know whether you can deny what I am saying. I want to understand why you think you have all the answers because it's clearly not from anything that can be called effort.

Dlaw
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw » January 17th, 2018, 1:16 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
January 17th, 2018, 4:16 am
Going down this route of pointing out how much more destructive men are, on average, than women will simply invite the assertion that men are also more constructive. It just feeds into this pointless narrative of men as active and women as passive. It's needlessly divisive. I agree with Greta on this one in pointing out that nobody, male or female, is a saint or a devil. We're all individual human beings with individual characteristics, and we're all, equally, in this together. We try to solve the world's problems together or not at all.
The thing is, the jury is still out on whether men are, in fact, more constructive.

Take the medical field. As women have moved towards equality in this field, some areas have actually become majority female. There's no evidence that productivity drops off at all. Quite the opposite.

I think there's a fetish about the benefit of risk-taking in the economy which is increasingly untrue. For example, low-risk, low-marginal-return investment strategies now dominate that business with High Frequency Trading and the dominance of the indices.

Dlaw
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw » January 17th, 2018, 1:20 pm

Judaka wrote:
January 17th, 2018, 9:52 am
As for employee reliability, here's one chart:

https://www.sap.com/integrated-reports/ ... ender.html
Dlaw I took a brief look at this and assumed I was looking at some kind of data collection site and this accounted for a decent sample size, it's actually a report released by a clearly, rather ethically concerned German company that recorded some statistics about the less than 80,000 people they employ. Are you serious? Can you tell me seriously that you didn't just google this the moment you were asked to back up your crap without even really looking at it? It barely even proves your point and it's probably the most biased evidence you could have provided, one company, in a particular industry, that is clearly not a reliable source.

You are the prime example of the degeneracy of my generation, it's clear you consider yourself an enlightened educator, fearsome debater and so on but you're so lost. If you spent half as much time developing your ideas as you did telling others what to think, you might have figured out something worthwhile to teach people by now, rather than ranting first and then finding random sites that support your arguments. If you can find the courage to get real for a second, I'd like to know whether you can deny what I am saying. I want to understand why you think you have all the answers because it's clearly not from anything that can be called effort.

Judaka, is it not clear to you that by using exactly the same evidence you are using I have totally undermined your claims?

You're not overwhelming me with evidence and you've cited zero evidence for your side of the argument, which, I assume, is why you've given up.

The point is that if you flip the question and go from the vague argument about what makes society better to the fairly concrete debate about what makes society worse, the male side of the ledger suddenly bleeds red ink.

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