Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Dachshund
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dachshund »

Greta wrote: January 13th, 2018, 6:18 am Well, that's me completely objectified as an inferior second class human being. Darn and blast.

As an inferior being, I am not qualified to offer an opinion but to merely bow and scrape to my masters, no matter how much less bright than me they are because they possess ... THE PENIS. This remarkable meat cylinder apparently imbues wielders with special mental powers that non penis owners cannot even imagine.

Meanwhile, Borat, like Dachshund, observed that women's brains are in fact around the size of a squirrel's. Each have impeccable sources ...

Now, now, Greta - don't despair. There's always the possibility of a sex- change op, you know. You could have yourself refitted with a Trump -sized "mentula"; then you wouldn't be just a silly girl moderator, why, you'd be the biggest " swingin' dick" on this whole goddamn forum ! XD XD :D :D

Regards

Dachshund
Dlaw
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw »

Burning ghost wrote: January 12th, 2018, 8:22 pm Dlaw -

Let me clarify please. You are saying that women have had no serious political influence in the world for the past 5000 years yet you say the change has happened "in some fields and in many workplaces." I was not asking about the "backbone" of society, I was asking about actual leadership and political decision making.
On the micro level - home and school, e.g. - women are unquestionably the "actual" leadership of decision makers.

But by your standard, women have yet to have serious political influence. The very few female leaders worldwide - mostly in Europe - (Christine Lagard, for example) are playing the same role as men and have not had the opportunity to influence the culture of the offices they hold.

When was it that women made this change? 1900? 1945? Have women been free for 100 years, 50 years or 20 years? Was in the 60's?

I guess you mean only recently we've seen this shift? By this I assume you mean women still don't have any significant political power? If not then around when did they become impactful if they've been out of the picture for 5000 years?
I think women became impactful politically some time in between the abolition and women's suffrage movement - approximately, but I don't think that feminism has much influence in the halls of power yet.
Dlaw
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw »

Judaka wrote: January 12th, 2018, 10:35 pm So in other people's view, this constitutes an intellectual point of view? I think it's an embarrassment. How in your view BG, do you think you are going to reason with someone like that? Dlaw I honestly don't believe that you came up with your argument before you arrived at your position, "Why do women seem to choose every position but violent criminality?"

You absolutely are not stupid enough to believe that women do not partake in violent crime, there's no way that you are blind to the reason there are no female despots which is sexism in countries where despots exist. Women are perpetrators of domestic abuse against children, where their victim is smaller than them and without the ability to defend themselves as a man can against a female. There are multiple ways of interpreting all of this information but like so many others, you chose to take the most extreme view you could and you don't appear to have a reason why. Even if you did, if you are aware of the interpretability of the information, why would you come to such a hardline view in the first place? I don't get it.
Judaka, it's not a "hard-line view" it's the plain fact. Women ARE NOT capable of violence to the same degree men are, on any sort of population/probabilistic basis. Your argument assumes what cannot be assumed since men are clearly responsible for essentially all of the violent crime on a percentage basis.

Do women commit violent crime? Yes, but to suggest they are equally capable as men is an equivocation and simply, provably untrue.

The larger philosophical argument here might be summed up as moving from an individual-level theory of ethics to coming up with an individual and a species-level ethics.
Dlaw
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw »

I have a feeling that I have tangled with Comrade Dachsund before. Does he have a theory of the wrongness of marriage/ownership of young females?

Anyway, Spengler or no Oswald "Racist Nonsense" Spengler, Dachsund FINALLY POINTS TO REAL FACTS to cite why feminism might be bad - Divorce.

And that is perfectly true in my opinion. In a weakly pair-bonding and sexually hyperactive species like Homo sapiens, patriarchy functioned to keep conflict from arising among males over possession of females.

Note: "possession" - here we come back to Veblen's original thesis with which I concur: oppression begins with the oppression of women.

Feminism is intrinsically anti-oppression until we recover.
Dlaw
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw »

Burning ghost wrote: January 13th, 2018, 10:38 am I am not sure if you're familiar with the work of Sapolsky. I've recently been absorbed by his lectures. One curious thing pointed out by his research on baboons suggests that once the articles of aggression are removed from a troupe the less dominate males take over and the newcomers to the group may come in acting aggressively, but quickly begin to adhere to the culture of the new group.

For the people on top of the heap to fall they either have to overstretch or reach some fateful end. To remove them would be nothing more than replacing them with the same like. Change lasts more readily when it is slow and steady, as opposed to quick and chaotic. Males seem to be more prone to risk taking due to testosterone.
Baboons have a completely different set of social/sexual habits. There's very little information there about humans since Homo sapiens and baboon species are quite distant relatives.
Dlaw
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw »

Burning ghost wrote: January 14th, 2018, 2:28 am Here's a gud un ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IISMr5OMceg

I have always found the paradox of tolerance interesting. I think what Zizek touches on about "distance" is the key factor here. The question of "tolerance" is very apparent today.
You have to remember that Zizek comes to everything as a Marxist. His theories presume Veblen's theory, as far as I know.
Steve3007
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Steve3007 »

Isn't it funny where the internet leads you? Following on from my previous post, I was looking for some indication as to the extent of support for women's rights in Australia. But now I've got quite interested in France. The history of the political influence of women in France looks quite interesting. I bet people have done PhD theses on it. (My nephew did an an entire PhD on an obscure poet.) From Lady Liberty (I remember the magnificent French 100 franc note with her bare-breasted image emblazoned on it, before the generic architecture of the Euro notes - damn you EU!) to Marine Le Penn, I'm sure it's a subject worthy of extensive study. If only there were enough time in a single lifetime, eh?

But, if there were enough time in a single lifetime to study all the interesting things in the world, would you do it? Would you fill your brain with a billion interesting facts, and connections between those facts, only for the entire thing to dissolve, like a Berocca in the rain, when your brain is finally starved of oxygen at the moment of death?

Discuss?

Maybe not.
Dlaw
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw »

Steve3007 wrote: January 14th, 2018, 4:33 pm Isn't it funny where the internet leads you? Following on from my previous post, I was looking for some indication as to the extent of support for women's rights in Australia. But now I've got quite interested in France. The history of the political influence of women in France looks quite interesting. I bet people have done PhD theses on it. (My nephew did an an entire PhD on an obscure poet.) From Lady Liberty (I remember the magnificent French 100 franc note with her bare-breasted image emblazoned on it, before the generic architecture of the Euro notes - damn you EU!) to Marine Le Penn, I'm sure it's a subject worthy of extensive study. If only there were enough time in a single lifetime, eh?

But, if there were enough time in a single lifetime to study all the interesting things in the world, would you do it? Would you fill your brain with a billion interesting facts, and connections between those facts, only for the entire thing to dissolve, like a Berocca in the rain, when your brain is finally starved of oxygen at the moment of death?

Discuss?

Maybe not.
Honestly, it can't be said enough times!

The Internet is there in our lives every day (now) and at the same time it's the greatest advance in human history.
Steve3007
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Steve3007 »

Maybe this is the existential point that street artists are trying to make when they do those elaborate chalk drawings which also dissolve in the rain.

Discuss?

Definitely not.


The Internet is there in our lives every day (now) and at the same time it's the greatest advance in human history.[/quote

It certainly is increasingly the water in which we swim.
Dlaw
Posts: 474
Joined: January 7th, 2014, 1:56 pm

Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Dlaw »

Steve3007 wrote: January 14th, 2018, 4:41 pm Maybe this is the existential point that street artists are trying to make when they do those elaborate chalk drawings which also dissolve in the rain.

Discuss?

Definitely not.


The Internet is there in our lives every day (now) and at the same time it's the greatest advance in human history.[/quote

It certainly is increasingly the water in which we swim.

Not "discuss" so much as marvel at it.

A neighbor who works in a senior capacity for Amazon Web Services was describing their new server farm in Oregon - as well as a new one they're planning. There's to way to describe it except as real life science fiction.
Steve3007
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Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Steve3007 »

Dlaw: We both seem to be neglecting our [/quote] tags don't we? I'll try to put an end to that.
A neighbor who works in a senior capacity for Amazon Web Services was describing their new server farm in Oregon - as well as a new one they're planning. There's to[no] way to describe it except as real life science fiction.
It does sound like something that Philip K Dick would dream up. Perhaps this new server farm should be devoted to mining Bitcoin. A software engineering colleague of mine was telling me the other day that a few years ago he was this close to buying some hardware for doing just that. But he didn't. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, I guess.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Sy Borg »

Dachshund wrote: January 14th, 2018, 1:49 pm
Greta wrote: January 13th, 2018, 6:18 am Well, that's me completely objectified as an inferior second class human being. Darn and blast.

As an inferior being, I am not qualified to offer an opinion but to merely bow and scrape to my masters, no matter how much less bright than me they are because they possess ... THE PENIS. This remarkable meat cylinder apparently imbues wielders with special mental powers that non penis owners cannot even imagine.

Meanwhile, Borat, like Dachshund, observed that women's brains are in fact around the size of a squirrel's. Each have impeccable sources ...
Now, now, Greta - don't despair. There's always the possibility of a sex- change op, you know. You could have yourself refitted with a Trump -sized "mentula"; then you wouldn't be just a silly girl moderator, why, you'd be the biggest " swingin' dick" on this whole goddamn forum ! XD XD :D :D
Dachshund, if I had a Trump sized brain put into my head, the chasm echoes would make it impossible to think.

It appears to me that you are a member of a hard right group. I'm guessing either Patriot Blue or the National Front. Yes?
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Burning ghost
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Burning ghost »

Dlaw wrote: January 14th, 2018, 3:14 pm
Burning ghost wrote: January 12th, 2018, 8:22 pm Dlaw -

Let me clarify please. You are saying that women have had no serious political influence in the world for the past 5000 years yet you say the change has happened "in some fields and in many workplaces." I was not asking about the "backbone" of society, I was asking about actual leadership and political decision making.
On the micro level - home and school, e.g. - women are unquestionably the "actual" leadership of decision makers.

But by your standard, women have yet to have serious political influence. The very few female leaders worldwide - mostly in Europe - (Christine Lagard, for example) are playing the same role as men and have not had the opportunity to influence the culture of the offices they hold.

When was it that women made this change? 1900? 1945? Have women been free for 100 years, 50 years or 20 years? Was in the 60's?

I guess you mean only recently we've seen this shift? By this I assume you mean women still don't have any significant political power? If not then around when did they become impactful if they've been out of the picture for 5000 years?
I think women became impactful politically some time in between the abolition and women's suffrage movement - approximately, but I don't think that feminism has much influence in the halls of power yet.
By "my standards" meaning what standards? Please note you then go on to say that feminism doesn't have much influence in the halls of power yet. This begs the question as to why it is that world poverty, child malnutrition and armed conflicts have all dramatically reduced since 1945. If feminism has a tiny influence then the world is already getting better without it.

As for the baboons. I can only suggest you take a closer look at that study. It could actually be used as feminist propaganda. I would also suggest that baboons are like an exaggerated version of the ape kingdom's disparity between male and females. Humans have veery little distinction between the sexes compared to any of the primates. Baboon males are very aggressive, and his study showed that it was not simply a biological trait that made males act aggressively. The age old nature or nurture debate is ... well old and generally not taken very seriously because the line is blurry in some areas and not so much in others.

I can question the influence over the household though in some instances. Even Aristotle said the women ruled the house, and given that they are the primary carers for babies and children this is generally common sense. Today is a different world and due ot feminism men do more to maintain the household than they used to most probably. Not quite sure what your point was though?

What we do know is that men are more likely to rise to high positions because they take more risks. And the other end of the scale men are more likely to fall to the lowest positions because they are more inclined to take risks. It makes some kind of sense for women to be risk averse if they have to nurse babies.

My position is that over all we can do little more than speculate and disagree about the correlations of womens rise to more influential power and change in society. The question itself is unanswerable because when women's positions change in society, society will change. If we frame the question to ask how women voting has effected society at large, I would say over all that is has had a positive effect.

I don't see why the feminist movement has any more movement to make in the west compared to other places around the globe.

Zizek describes himself as a stange kind of Marxist. From what I have heard from him he means he found the psychological implications of this thoughts interesting (regarding things like self value in the work place.) He does openly say he is a Lacanian. I do think there is good value to be had in exploring psychoanalytic philosophers.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Sy Borg »

I largely agree, BG, although I'd like to see more women in boardrooms and politics. A balance would address more broad concerns and perspectives than a mono-gender group.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Burning ghost »

Greta wrote: January 15th, 2018, 1:33 am I largely agree, BG, although I'd like to see more women in boardrooms and politics. A balance would address more broad concerns and perspectives than a mono-gender group.
I am not opposed, in theory, to helping social evolution along. I just don't think we know enough about it to make any rash decisions. When it comes to GM foods we're in a much more knowledgeable position, but even there people are in some disagreement. The selective breeding of the past has now been refined into a much more safer and precise science, yet there is currently more fear over this precision than in random and dangerously imposed cross-breeding which led to many ecological problems.

A helping hand is okay. I posted that vid about Iceland because the laws there seem to be pushing to hard and what was merely a helping hand is not a hand that is forcing chance against stronger and stronger social resistance. I think the problem arises due to women who are intelligent and ambitious feeling like they are not being given a fair chance, but I think there is the problem of accepting that maybe men are more ambitious and more willing to risk everything to succeed and to therefore be worthy of a mate - we can see these kinds of things playing out in all manner of different ways across the animal kingdom. I find it a little strange if people try and regard women and men as not being driven socially in different ways; and that is not to say that I don't think there is a considerable overlap because as I have stated the differences between men and women compared to every other species of ape is considerably smaller.

Some women are going to be as ambitious as men. What I think the problem is with feminism is that the more radical part of the movement believes that ALL women are just as ambitious as men and willing to risk everything. So it makes perfect sense to me that for every one woman in a top position there are many more men. I think if we force "equality" (think about that, FORCE equality) you're going to see nothing more than a serious and violent backlash which would likely set back real equality and equal opportunity. Like with the "news" item from Australia; which I regard as nothing more the nonsense propaganda. The fact that it was being talked about and argued for is fairly ridiculous. To block the uptake of men into the armed forces in order to force "equality" is preposterous. It is such moves I regard as a forceful hand rather than a helping hand.

I think Sausage Dog is here to flush out radical feminists. Maybe I am naïve though, because I find it so hard to understand a position that talks about stopping women from voting. If that is his aim then I am still curious to hear how such an idea could be implemented. He has yet to respond to that question and I can only assume it is because he knows that it cannot be implemented so he's left to doing nothing more than antagonizing and arguing against feminists (which is useful I guess, but only in terms of how the radical side of feminism may come to see a little of themselves in his words and check themselves.)

I was watching something with Anne Coulter today. There is another antagonist! It is just a shame she is overtly brutal in her approach, but that is part and parcel of why she is viewed the way she is viewed. I was watching her "debate" about single mothers. She made some very valid points, but given the format of the show it was nothing more than a publicity stunt and sadly I think she is out for the bucks rather than any serious debate.

It is extremely hard to listen to someone who says a lot of crap that you find repulsive. The problem is when they say something informative we're inclined to squash it instantly rather than investigate the information being put forward. I truly believe if you cannot find something of reasonable value on the opposing side of the argument you're not trying hard enough to oppose your own arguments.
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