Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

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Hereandnow
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Hereandnow »

Greetings Greta: he doesn't respond, but only rants. I wouldn't mind his views if he would defend them, but he doesn't. To me, Dascshund is trollish: he doesn't discuss, he "twitters" at length just to antagonize. I like your third strike approach. When I was teaching, that was how I dealt with a fool's ego and arrogance.
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LuckyR
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by LuckyR »

I think Scott already answered this question
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Steve3007 »

I vote for number 1. Do nothing. Don't allow troll-like posters to claim that they were censored. Don;t reply in kind. Take the posts at face value and pull them apart. If that analysis is ignored, the rest of the poster's words can then be ignored.
Belindi
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Belindi »

Dachsund perhaps did not understand that I was sarcastic when I wrote that he, Dachsund, was born a little squalling Conservative.
Dachsund had written :
What was the modern era's most ridiculous, nonsensical and downright bloody dangerous lie?

It has to be Thomas Jefferson's "We hold these truth to be self-evident that all men are created equal..." that was written into the America Declaration of Independence.

The Bell curve tells us, Belinda, that the vast, overwhelming majority of us do not, in fact, possess , special,extraordinary abilities. Most of us , - the VAST MAJORITY fall into the humdrum, mundane old category of being no more than average IN ALL RESPECTS.
The spirit of equality referred to by Jefferson is Locke's dictum that babies are born tabula rasa. While in the light of modern genetics we know that this is not strictly true we do know that no newborn is a Conservative , a Communist, an aristocrat, a Christian, a king, a slave, a peasant, or a commoner. All of those and more are statuses conferred by society. The bell curve to which you refer, Dachsund, shows that nurture not nature causes differences in social status.
Georgeanna
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Georgeanna »

Greta wrote: February 15th, 2018, 9:32 pm
Dachshund wrote: February 15th, 2018, 10:06 am
And it would seem that female moderators on this forum (i.e. you and Grrrreta) ares pecially inclined to be naive, moralistic SJWs and sensitive little liberal "Snowflakes" :P
Fair enough to fire back at Belinda, but I'm not going to be a punching bag to be hit when the moods arrives when I'm providing voluntary services. Mods tend to cop more aggression than others and after a while you need to protect yourself. The occasional attack is no drama, but when it is regular it becomes wearing so it's probably smartest to act.

It will be interesting to try something different so I'd like to put this to a vote. My options in dealing with Dachshund's rebellion are:

1. Do nothing
2. Give him another warning
3. Warn him that I will give him another warning
4. Suspend for a period
5. Banning
6. Reply in kind with an ad hominem
7. Quit the forum and write.

I am taking votes. If there's no input, then it's third strike and out banned. Choose as many options as you like, or add new ones.

Thank you :)
Greta, if there are forum rules already in place and they are to be applied consistently and fairly, then I'm not sure why you are asking these questions on this thread.

It seems that you are inviting posters to help you make a personal decision. Perhaps that is the problem? You have become too involved ?

There seems to be a tension between the two separate roles of moderator and contributor.

If the rules are not adequate for an objective decision to be taken, isn't that another matter ?

Either way, I don't see you quitting the forum. It's not an either or issue, is it ?

If you do see - being here - as taking time away from you following other challenges, then that's a matter of reflecting on what matters most, and time-management. But you know all that; you are that wise woman :)

Just a few thoughts...
Regards.
Belindi
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Belindi »

Georgiana wrote:
There seems to be a tension between the two separate roles of moderator and contributor.
I feel no such tension. I feel that moderators are for online support of actual laws of libel, slander, and instigation for actual crimes , which are reflected in the by-laws of forum conduct as instituted by Scott. Online insults are not slander or libel unless they contain false evidence. Online insults can be time wasters for forum users who want to learn something and scroll away from time wasters. Alternatively online insults may be humorous and good humoured.

Online obscenity which is pointless and unnecessary should be deleted and the originator banned if they persist in it. Obscene is relative and subjective but moderators try to be as fair as possible.
Steve3007
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Steve3007 »

There seems to be a tension between the two separate roles of moderator and contributor.

If the rules are not adequate for an objective decision to be taken, isn't that another matter ?
I don't know if such a tension exists. But if it does, I see it as an interesting microcosm of the problems of judges, laws and constitutions in the wider world: the tension between the two separate roles of judge and politically engaged citizen. It seems to me that rules are almost never entirely adequate for a completely objective decision to be taken. It's very difficult to find a form of wording that leaves absolutely no room for different interpretations. And the wider the applicability of the rule, the more that is true.
Londoner
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Londoner »

Steve3007 wrote: February 12th, 2018, 6:09 am So the contrary argument that you've stated here is that the correlation I've described between enfranchisement and freedom is not the whole story. As I understand it, you're putting the argument that we may think we have more individual freedom now, but we actually have less because government has more power over our lives now than it did in the past. It is the increase in the size of government which is more correctly seen as correlating with more universal suffrage. Or maybe the argument could be that the amount of freedom hasn't changed much but the constraints on us have shifted from tribal tradition and ritual to government.

One point I would like to make: When you say "we are also accepting that a democratically elected government can take them away", I suppose that is theoretically not true in countries (like the US) which have a written constitution which purports to set out general principles that can't simply be removed by democratically elected politicians. As I understand it, that's part of the point of having a constitution which forms the baseline on which legislation (which is theoretically decided by the people via their elected representatives) is built. And some people argue that part of the point of that constitution is to limit the size and reach of government.
I skeptical that constitutions (of the 'we hold these truths' type) make any difference, witness the radical changes regarding slavery, women's rights and the relationship of individual states to the Union. You can make generalized sentiments mean whatever you want them to mean. After all, there is a basic contradiction between a constitution and democracy; the constitution tries to constrain what people can do, but democracy says that the people are sovereign.

A constitution in the sense of a system of government, check-and-balances is different, but even then it only works as long as it reflects the realities of power. If real power shifts, then either the system explodes or it becomes a hollow facade behind which the real business is done.

I am playing Devil's Advocate regarding democracy because it can be regarded as having had a disastrous effect on places where the populations are mixed. If you turn somewhere into a democracy, then boundaries and citizenship become important. So the introduction of democracy in Europe was accompanied by comprehensive 'ethnic cleansing' - and the same thing can be seen wherever you move from some kind of absolute ruler to some kind of representative system.

You write: 'the constraints on us have shifted from tribal tradition and ritual to government'. Phrased that way, it suggests a natural progression away from primitive and unthinking habits. But the same description could be - and has been - used to justify the suppression of native populations, religious minorities, sexual 'deviants' and anyone else who does not fit the norms of the majority. There is no guarantee that the majority is necessarily going to be liberal or tolerant.
Belindi
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Belindi »

Londoner wrote:
So the introduction of democracy in Europe was accompanied by comprehensive 'ethnic cleansing' - and the same thing can be seen wherever you move from some kind of absolute ruler to some kind of representative system.
Theresa May's present support for Brexit may be caused by support for democracy. However her support for Brexit and democracy underlines the fact that democracy if it's to effect fairness and efficiency needs educated citizens, lawful control of media monopolies, and open government.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Sy Borg »

Georganna, it's true that there is conflict between mod and contributor, and that's exactly why I asked for contributions rather than act unilaterally. Also, I've never enjoyed authority roles and would like to share some responsibility.

The other issue is that true clarity and consistency here is impossible; it's a judgement call. If some stretching of the rules is not allowed then the forum is too locked down and extra mod work is created only to make the forum a less frank place to be.

There should also be room for informality, humour and robustness - for humans to be human. However, in the words of Mr Hund's favourite government figure, he "has crossed many lines", and he's done so to test the system, to make a statement. If there is no action then he has control and if he's banned then he achieves a trivial martyrdom for his cause that he can use to undermine the forum, as was suggested.

If I ignore bad behaviour then it will proliferate, as happens on forums with easygoing moderation. It renders the rules ineffectual and pointless, as suggested. So "Do nothing" can't be an option on reflection, however the point is well made.

Another warning plus two week's suspension. No martyrdom just yet, just a chance to let everything settle and hopefully reboot in a more productive manner.

Thanks very much to all for helping out with this. I'd really just prefer a peaceful, uncomplicated life :)
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Hereandnow
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Hereandnow »

Dachshund is giddy with delight over this attention. That was the point.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Sy Borg »

Oh well, at least when I face The Reaper I can say I helped at least one person find some happiness :)
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Burning ghost
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Burning ghost »

Hereandnow wrote: February 16th, 2018, 11:19 am Dachshund is giddy with delight over this attention. That was the point.
And I am still trying to get your attention and get you to respond ... should I give up hope, or did you simply miss my last request?
AKA badgerjelly
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Hereandnow
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Hereandnow »

Burning ghost
And I am still trying to get your attention and get you to respond ... should I give up hope, or did you simply miss my last request?
I seem to recall your saying what I said was just hogwash. Don't know how that warranted a response.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Changes in society correlated with the rise of women's rights

Post by Sy Borg »

The post is a long time ago. BG, I thought HAN's earlier post was terrific, although I disagree with the Marxist notion of the rich spending other people's wealth. Where is there equal distribution of wealth in large groups anywhere in nature, or in history? Progress depends on inequality and, in fact, is largely created by it. The issue is how we handle inequality and, in that, there's room for improvement:

1. Status and stigma accorded by wealth. This is gratuitous because the actual wealth or lack is its own reward and punishment. In time, educated people will increasingly consider others on an individual rather than stereotypical basis.

2. The degree of inequality. If politicians let go of their mindless ideologies they would notice that a natural law applies where a certain threshold of inequality brings instability and breaks down synergies. Ideally politicians would prioritise stability and harmony over the self-centred demands of political donors.
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