How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

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Judaka
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Judaka »

I'm really thinking about a belief that a person's underlying nature doesn't change but that stress and or drugs let them express that true nature
I think the issue with countering an argument like that is the terminology, in order to counter an argument like this you need to understand exactly what is meant by "nature" and "true nature". So long as it's enigmatic, you can't really counter the argument. The argument may not even be invalid, depending on those definitions. Once you have the definitions, you can make a counter argument using their own logic to demonstrate invalidity.
Alias
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Alias »

That's right.
You can ask "What do you mean by their nature?" Temperament? Character? Desires? Attitudes? Where do these traits come from? When you say 'true nature', do you mean that people usually hide their desires and attitudes, but let them show under the influence of chemicals? But then, don't we all hide some of our nature? What is good behaviour, virtue and manners but a suppression of our true nature?
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Alias wrote: January 12th, 2018, 11:05 am That's right.
You can ask "What do you mean by their nature?" Temperament? Character? Desires? Attitudes? Where do these traits come from? When you say 'true nature', do you mean that people usually hide their desires and attitudes, but let them show under the influence of chemicals? But then, don't we all hide some of our nature? What is good behaviour, virtue and manners but a suppression of our true nature?
Ok, I'm confused about the role that last sentence would play in my argument.

I don't believe that people's "true nature" needs to be suppressed.

To make it clear where I'm coming from, I believe that Homo sapiens is a social species whose population took off as never before in Evolution when the strength and complexity of our social behaviors increased. To me, that means we are "hard-wired" to be social, therefore "good". We are also hard wired to have impulses like the rest of the mammals that push (particularly males) towards violence, sexual misconduct, greed, sloth, etc.. The evidence such as it is and my life experience back this up, I believe.

Also, I've had panic disorder in the past, so I know what it feels like when (as I see it) a primitive part of your brain sends impulses to the rest of your brain that are perfectly authentic-seeming, but do not comport with reality. To me, different parts of the brain process different information differently and the same information differently.

So the idea of a "true nature" that is singular seems totally wrong to me.
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

BTW, Forumites, this is a VERY productive conversation. I really thank you for it.
Alias
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Alias »

Dlaw wrote: January 12th, 2018, 1:42 pm [But then, don't we all hide some of our nature? What is good behaviour, virtue and manners but a suppression of our true nature?]

Ok, I'm confused about the role that last sentence would play in my argument.
And yet you go on to show exactly how it does:
we are "hard-wired" to be social, therefore "good". We are also hard wired to have impulses like the rest of the mammals that push (particularly males) towards violence, sexual misconduct, greed, sloth, etc..
And those are the impulses that alcohol and drugs, as well as some other outside influences, liberate from conscious control.
In a smaller way, and on a daily, hourly basis, we all have to suppress the impulse to say something unkind, to make a rude noise, to laugh at someone's misfortune, to ask an inappropriate questions, to touch an off-limit person or body part, to remove our clothing, to grimace or point, or leer or stare or spit or sneeze or scratch or take the last cookie.
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Alias wrote: January 12th, 2018, 3:26 pm
Dlaw wrote: January 12th, 2018, 1:42 pm [But then, don't we all hide some of our nature? What is good behaviour, virtue and manners but a suppression of our true nature?]

Ok, I'm confused about the role that last sentence would play in my argument.
And yet you go on to show exactly how it does:
Fair enough. I didn't actually mean that to be critical in any way.
we are "hard-wired" to be social, therefore "good". We are also hard wired to have impulses like the rest of the mammals that push (particularly males) towards violence, sexual misconduct, greed, sloth, etc..
And those are the impulses that alcohol and drugs, as well as some other outside influences, liberate from conscious control.
In a smaller way, and on a daily, hourly basis, we all have to suppress the impulse to say something unkind, to make a rude noise, to laugh at someone's misfortune, to ask an inappropriate questions, to touch an off-limit person or body part, to remove our clothing, to grimace or point, or leer or stare or spit or sneeze or scratch or take the last cookie.
Here's the thing - are those misbehaviors excesses of degree or flaws in fundamental motivations? Anyone can get angry, but can anyone say really hurtful things when he's angry? That's part of the question that brought this up, so let me put it out there.

I'm very much on the "excesses of degree" side of the argument. Yes, I think there are behaviors that some Homo sapiens - with the benefit of growth and rudimentary positive conditioning - simply could not engage in no matter how much they were stimulated. But I think history shows us there are not many.

Certainly women seem consistently incapable of certain acts of barbarism even when forced, and some men too. It's harder to say that a man "wouldn't ever" do anything, based on the extremes of behavior male Homo sapiens have engaged in time and time again, but I think it's possible.

The degree to which otherwise normal-seeming people vary in their capacity for excess, however, is both broad and broad over the same person's lifetime.

So is "good behavior" an act of suppression or is it the channeling of a pre-existing virtuous motivation which competes with typically more selfish and less-considered motivations?
Alias
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Alias »

Dlaw wrote: January 12th, 2018, 5:10 pm
Here's the thing - are those misbehaviors excesses of degree or flaws in fundamental motivations? Anyone can get angry, but can anyone say really hurtful things when he's angry?
Oh yes - unless they have very deeply embedded, overpowering superego and very little id.
Anyway, my point wasn't about degrees of misbehaviour and who is capable of what.
I merely suggested that you ask you judgmental relative where the lines are to be drawn. How she tells the difference between the kind of animal impulse we all suppress under civilized conditioning and the bad behaviour that manifests the "true nature" of people she condemns.
Judaka
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Judaka »

Certainly women seem consistently incapable of certain acts of barbarism even when forced, and some men too. It's harder to say that a man "wouldn't ever" do anything, based on the extremes of behavior male Homo sapiens have engaged in time and time again, but I think it's possible
http://www.historynet.com/men-against-f ... am-war.htm There are statistics about world war 2 and the American-vietnamese war that show the vast majority of men were unwilling to shoot or kill others even when permitted and ordered to do so. Some figures showing only 2% of soldiers in ww2 shot to kill which included psychopaths which constitute 1 in every 100 people and probably more in armies.
Yes, I think there are behaviors that some Homo sapiens - with the benefit of growth and rudimentary positive conditioning - simply could not engage in no matter how much they were stimulated. But I think history shows us there are not many.
The solution to this was to "condition" people to shoot to kill by implementing training exercises where soldiers were taught to shoot on reflex at cut outs in the shape of humans. The evidence suggests things are actually entirely reversed from your views, there is no need to condition people to non-violence.

There are many factors in why men commit violent crime, firstly once again it is estimated that 15-25% of prisoners are psychopaths and more with regards to violent crime. Ultimately my point is that your view is incorrect, though I doubt you care.
So is "good behavior" an act of suppression or is it the channeling of a pre-existing virtuous motivation which competes with typically more selfish and less-considered motivations?
Whether you repress your "bad" side or channel your "good side" basically I think most of the really "bad" stuff are not options to most people who have neither power or desire to do "bad". Normal people don't need to sit down and remind themselves not to rape and kill others, past that point it comes down to your idea of "good behaviour" which is surely different to mine.

And to go back to the topic at hand, does a person's inhibitions and restraint not comport to some degree their "true nature"? If you are born with violent tendencies beyond your control and struggle against them, is that not more of an accomplishment than being born as someone with no violent tendencies and then committing no crimes? Why would the former individual be praised as having a virtuous "true nature" when they aren't even responsible for their own "goodness".
Eduk
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Eduk »

Dlaw are you a Christian?
Unknown means unknown.
Littlemoon
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Joined: December 13th, 2017, 2:05 pm

Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Littlemoon »

My advice: normally people who have a really firm belief in the arguments they present, no matter how bad they are, will not change their view no matter the arguments you present to them. Debating with those people is a lost cause. Even if you demonstrate your argument is superior they will simply disregard it. So I'd say not to dwell in any arguments with those people. It will only frustrate you.
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Sy Borg
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Sy Borg »

How does one nicely debate a person who makes claims that you are is sub-human by virtue of genetics?

You don't because it is effectively a declaration of war.
Littlemoon
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Joined: December 13th, 2017, 2:05 pm

Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Littlemoon »

Greta wrote: January 13th, 2018, 10:34 pm How does one nicely debate a person who makes claims that you are is sub-human by virtue of genetics?

You don't because it is effectively a declaration of war.
Amen!
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Eduk wrote: January 13th, 2018, 2:21 pm Dlaw are you a Christian?
I'm a Christian Atheist - but I guess you knew the answer might be a little complicated.
Dlaw
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Joined: January 7th, 2014, 1:56 pm

Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Greta wrote: January 13th, 2018, 10:34 pm How does one nicely debate a person who makes claims that you are is sub-human by virtue of genetics?

You don't because it is effectively a declaration of war.

That's exactly how I always take it, Greta.

But at the same time, it's such a hardy, recurring idea among humans that I don't know if the answer is just to throw everyone who thinks that way at all under the same bus as those whose feeling of superiority guides their everyday behavior.

(Any guess whom I might be thinking of?}
Alias
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Alias »

Does this mean perpetual war - parent against child, brother vs. brother... ? No parlay, ever?
...Safvd...
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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