How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

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Dlaw
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How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Hi Forumites,

I am having a problem that may be familiar to many of you - especially these days. That is, I have a family member who has a really flawed philosophy of human nature and it's leading to problems.

Basically, her idea is an extension of the low-impulse-control model of addiction expanded to a Neo-Calvinist view that a human being's true nature is this sum of their worst misdeed - that is, when the person's true nature is revealed by stress, drugs, whatever.

I find this view so appalling and maddening that I have trouble calmly rebutting it, insofar as I see this thinking as so destructive, perpetuating stereotypes and some of the worst behavior.

Can you help me calmly form an argument here? And please, if you are a Neo-Calvinist (or might be called one by people who were trolling you), help me understand that side of the argument. I really mean it.

I just have a terrible time when I'm confronted by ignorance (which I define as a refusal to think things through, rather than a collection of misimpressions or unknown arguments)
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Hereandnow
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Hereandnow »

Dlaw:
Can you help me calmly form an argument here? And please, if you are a Neo-Calvinist (or might be called one by people who were trolling you), help me understand that side of the argument. I really mean it.
I have come across Calvinism on several occasions. This idea of an elite, pre selected in the mind of god, chosen group, predestined to rise in the grace of god and there was nothing you could do about it, though your doing what you do carried the sign of whether you were among the saved or not;this kind of thinking like all such things, needs to be challenged at the level of basic assumptions. All things posited have their basis in other things. Here it would be not just about what you see in the world, it is about the unseen, and the Bible is at the heart of it.

To reason through this, I guess it goes along these lines:

People are assessed by what their deeds show, and their deeds are a measure of whether they are in the great book of god's blessed ones. Therefore, if you are wretched, are unproductive and exhibit failings over virtues, then you are bound for condemnation. Here, material circumstances that give rise to failure in the world can be rationalized in the same way, for if want to point out that failure is determined by accidents of nature and nurture, that is, the gifts you have or lack and the socioeconomc possibilities you are born into, the Calvinist exponent can refer those to god's plan as well. So, in this case the idea of god and his dissemination of favor to all who are predestined rules over all arguments because all you can bring forth to argue about would be the facts of the material world, e.g., the fact that people fail when they are raised in environments where circumstances encourage the worst behavior and outcomes. well, the Calvinst will retort, THAT was god's doing as well. Too bad: this is exactly the kind of thing people need to do to understand the rationality behind compassion and empathy. That miscreant who robbed and assaulted and sold drugs USED TO be a child, and this child did not possess the genetic determination to be a criminal. If Einstein had been born in the ghetto, he would likely have become a very smart drug dealer.

So if your Calvanist family member is impervious to reason of this kind, then the matter falls back to god and predestination. There are many, many Christian denominations, why this one, the one that is the least defensible in terms of accounting for guilt and innocence in the eyes of god.

You could say that the family member on question is believing in Calvin more than in god, for it is Calvin's argument that holds sway. Is it right in the noble pursuit of understanding god's will to adhere strictly to a single interpretation? Is there not an obligation to search out the truth contained in the Bible through an exposure to alternative exegeses? Why the one? Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians: they all together give perspective and the settling on one is just plain presumptuous, as if s/he knows the one is better than the other. Best to educate yourself to RISE to a position where the issue is understood. If all a person ever read was Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, then what would your criticism be? It would be that you haven't read Calvin. But the same applies to the Calvinist.

Of course, you can always go philosophical: What is the basis for believing in God? What is there in judgment and feeling that recommends this? What is the argument?

Get angry: this is exactly the kind of reasoning that gives encouragement and rationalization to the most offensive human cultures, the plutocracies where wealth and power lies with the lucky few, who can now breathe free for Calvin has given them the divine right to say F**k the poor, god despises them, obviously; why else would they be poor? Now Calvinists have been know to be frugal and non indulgent, for the matter was to be wealthy but not worldly. But this is where forgivable sins lie, among the chosen yet still fallen.

This of course, goes on and on.
Steve3007
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Steve3007 »

OP:

My advice is that at family Christmas get-togethers your steer clear of philosophy and stick to charades and Twister.
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Thanks, all.

I think my reference to Calvinism may have confused matters.

I'm really thinking about a belief that a person's underlying nature doesn't change but that stress and or drugs let them express that true nature.
Alias
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Alias »

If you can't avoid this person and her views, I would suggest the passive approach.
Just nod and say nothing. Anyone who believes in a god so unjust can't be reached by reason or compassion.
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Alias wrote: January 11th, 2018, 5:02 pm If you can't avoid this person and her views, I would suggest the passive approach.
Just nod and say nothing. Anyone who believes in a god so unjust can't be reached by reason or compassion.

Again, I seem to have gotten on the wrong track by mentioning religion.

The person involved is an atheist, she just had beliefs about human nature that I can only liken to Calvinism. Maybe that's my problem here. I just don't understand the worldview.
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Hereandnow
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Hereandnow »

"Can you help me calmly form an argument here? And please, if you are a Neo-Calvinist (or might be called one by people who were trolling you), help me understand that side of the argument. I really mean it."

"I think my reference to Calvinism may have confused matters"

Confused? You mean your explicit reference to that, the Calvanist, side of the argument.....and you really meant it?? How is it possible to be confused about something explicit?
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Hereandnow wrote: January 11th, 2018, 5:21 pm "Can you help me calmly form an argument here? And please, if you are a Neo-Calvinist (or might be called one by people who were trolling you), help me understand that side of the argument. I really mean it."

"I think my reference to Calvinism may have confused matters"

Confused? You mean your explicit reference to that, the Calvanist, side of the argument.....and you really meant it?? How is it possible to be confused about something explicit?
Well, how would you define a Calvinist-LIKE propensity to judge the essence of people absent empathy?
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Hereandnow
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Hereandnow »

You would have to be more clear: absent empathy? Well, what do they say? Do they think they are among the elite predestined to go to heaven, so they abuse others, condemn them, and so forth?
Alias
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Alias »

Dlaw wrote: January 11th, 2018, 5:19 pm
Again, I seem to have gotten on the wrong track by mentioning religion.

The person involved is an atheist, she just had beliefs about human nature that I can only liken to Calvinism. Maybe that's my problem here. I just don't understand the worldview.
Well, all right then. If it's not down to God, there is something else at the center of her attitude to other people. Perhaps the right-wing American notion that if someone doesn't succeed in this, the Land of Opportunity and Freedom and All Good Things, it must be their own fault. Some people call it making bad decisions. Some attribute it to weakness. Or laziness. They can't wait to blame a loser or punish a victim.
You can probably find out the reason that person is so judgmental. It might be her own fear of losing, or denial of the real nature of her society; it could be self-justification for taking advantages not available to others, or racism, or simple blindness to the pervasive national mythos.

If you can find out the source of her insecurity, you might be able to reach her with statistics, history... facts.
But I wouldn't count on it!
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Alias wrote: January 11th, 2018, 7:16 pm
Dlaw wrote: January 11th, 2018, 5:19 pm
Again, I seem to have gotten on the wrong track by mentioning religion.

The person involved is an atheist, she just had beliefs about human nature that I can only liken to Calvinism. Maybe that's my problem here. I just don't understand the worldview.
Well, all right then. If it's not down to God, there is something else at the center of her attitude to other people. Perhaps the right-wing American notion that if someone doesn't succeed in this, the Land of Opportunity and Freedom and All Good Things, it must be their own fault. Some people call it making bad decisions. Some attribute it to weakness. Or laziness. They can't wait to blame a loser or punish a victim.
You can probably find out the reason that person is so judgmental. It might be her own fear of losing, or denial of the real nature of her society; it could be self-justification for taking advantages not available to others, or racism, or simple blindness to the pervasive national mythos.

If you can find out the source of her insecurity, you might be able to reach her with statistics, history... facts.
But I wouldn't count on it!
Thank you, Alias. I'm heartbroken about this attitude. It seems to have come on with possible major depression. I just have trouble unpacking how to react because I'm so emotional.

On a personal level, that really helped me, but of course if I'm the kind of person who's on here, I still want to understand more about where attitudes come from and how we can use philosophical reasoning to pick apart these knots.
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Hereandnow wrote: January 11th, 2018, 7:14 pm You would have to be more clear: absent empathy? Well, what do they say? Do they think they are among the elite predestined to go to heaven, so they abuse others, condemn them, and so forth?
If you put forward a bad argument, I will slice it and dice it, but I don't think it means you're a bad person. I just don't like bad arguments.

I have met plenty of people with whom I disagree vociferously but whom I can avoid judging.

I don't understand why that's hard for people.

To me, judging is the first step towards objectifying and objectifying people is the first step towards mistreating them.

Am I off base there? Am I at all clear?

I'm probably too emotional right now to write this, frankly.
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Hereandnow
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Hereandnow »

If you're saying that people without empathy and treat the suffering of others dismissively, as with the video that went viral not long a go that showed two teens laughing at a drowning man, then I must say, STAY AWAY from these people as best you can. If there is something genuinely evil in the world, that would be it. Sure, be nice about it.
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Sy Borg
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve and Alias have expressed my first thoughts. Probably best to let it go, although I'd probably impulsively debate when a particularly bone-headed thing was said with enough authority, harm relationships and regret afterwards :lol:

Calvinism is steeped in negativity bias. The dynamic behind negativity bias is fear, namely fear of death and annihilation. Perfectly natural, of course, but negativity bias can lead us, not only into logical error, but into danger because our judgement is compromised.

It is not logical to judge a person based only on their worst. That is only one factor, an extremely important one, but ultimately only practical shorthand in assessing character if getting to know the person is not possible.

If one has the time to get to know another then there is other information to consider, including a person's best, how often they are at their best and worst, what the triggers are and how likely good or bad behaviour is in everyday life, whether a person's behaviour and attitudes are maturing and developing and, importantly, how a person operates most of the time.
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Alias »

So, it's the hard-hearted person who has suffered depression? That could matter - or not.

A long time ago, I had a friend who expressed a hard-line libertarian attitude, which I found bewildering, given their innate generosity toward people they actually met. So, where did this philosophy come from? In their case, from a combination of engineers' mind-set (utilitarian approach to all problems; impatience with theory) and inaccurate information about the USA (their adoptive country, which they had long admired from afar.) This person slowly, over several years, changed their attitude through reading (of history and sociology and even some fiction) and observation (listening to the news.)

Arguing often pushes people into a corner, where they become defensive and actually entrench those erroneous views, rather than examining them.
Asking questions, particularly of concrete examples, works better. Like : What if...? and How about...? and Is this fair...?
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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