How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

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Eduk
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Eduk »

Dlaw. What is a Christian atheist?
My main point in asking if you are Christian was an attempt to find unreasonable beliefs that you have. All of alternative medicine counts too, not a believer in homeopathy by any chance? I would also count all most all strong economic or political beliefs.
Now the point of all this is an attempt to point your question at yourself. What would be needed to convince you of the unreasonableness of your own unreasonable beliefs?
Because logic is not the answer for most people. For example I was listening to the radio the other and an alcoholic was explaining what it took to make them realise they needed to change. Logically they knew they were an alcoholic, logically they knew too much drink is rarely a great thing, logically they knew this is probably harming people they love. But what it took was a look of disappointment on their child's face.
My point in all this is to say that there are no simple straight forward answers. The only answer I know is to expend a great deal of effort and then you might stumble upon a solution. Failing that you will just have to hope your relative experienced an event negative enough emotionally to them that they are forced to change.
Oh by the way you seem to be describing conservativism to me? In that people are 100% responsible for all their actions.
Unknown means unknown.
Steve3007
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Steve3007 »

Greta wrote:How does one nicely debate a person who makes claims that you are sub-human by virtue of genetics?

You don't because it is effectively a declaration of war.
To be fair, the person I suspect you might be thinking of didn't actually claim that you are sub-human by virtue of genetics. He just claimed that you are "emotionally labile, fickle, unpredictable, untrustworthy, disloyal, disingenuous, inherently disposed to dissimulation, dissembling, a chronic lier, cunning, manipulative and duplicitous, like a naughty, mischievous child who needs the firm supervision and guidance of man if you are not to generate, mischief, mayhem, trouble and grief" by virtue of genetics.

But seriously: do you think it was a mistake on my part to give that kind of odious worldview another platform after his original one was sunk? I'm reminded of the saying that if you mud-wrestle with a pig you both get dirty and pretty soon you realize that the pig is enjoying it. I think the "pig" in enjoying it. I originally honestly thought that the pig might be faking it. Now I don't.

As you suggest, once war has been declared maybe the time for "jaw jaw" is over.
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Sy Borg
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Sy Borg »

Alias, we have someone on the forum who believes that you and I lack the mental tools to deserve suffrage. Is there any chance you could go and talk sense into him in a nice way, because my patience ran out with him weeks ago.
Alias
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Alias »

Greta wrote: January 14th, 2018, 5:57 pm Alias, we have someone on the forum who believes that you and I lack the mental tools to deserve suffrage. Is there any chance you could go and talk sense into him in a nice way, because my patience ran out with him weeks ago.
They've been making the rounds, about half a dozen of them, inundating forums with their rants. I believe they are a minority small enough to be ostracized without diminishing the community, but not all moderators resort to extreme measures, so I abandoned a couple of sites.
However, I do sympathize with someone who is related to a bigot. I have broken with friends and family members whose attitudes were permanently irreconcilable with mine - but it always hurts.
OTH I don't think everyone with seemingly entrenched opinions on one issue is necessarily unreachable forever. I've also had small successes. Some with debate or argument, some with questions. Some change with experience, education and time - I can't take credit for that.
I've seen remarkable changes in an entire society's attitudes over my lifetime; we are not always in deadlock. Somebody must have convinced other people that their views were wrong, according to some principles those majorities did accept as valid.
Alias
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Alias »

Steve3007 wrote: January 14th, 2018, 5:33 pm To be fair, the person I suspect you might be thinking of didn't actually claim that you are sub-human by virtue of genetics. He just claimed that you are "emotionally labile, fickle, unpredictable, untrustworthy, disloyal, disingenuous, inherently disposed to dissimulation, dissembling, a chronic lier, cunning, manipulative and duplicitous, like a naughty, mischievous child who needs the firm supervision and guidance of man if you are not to generate, mischief, mayhem, trouble and grief" by virtue of genetics.
IOW, human.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Sy Borg
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Sy Borg »

Alias wrote: January 14th, 2018, 8:04 pm
Greta wrote: January 14th, 2018, 5:57 pm Alias, we have someone on the forum who believes that you and I lack the mental tools to deserve suffrage. Is there any chance you could go and talk sense into him in a nice way, because my patience ran out with him weeks ago.
They've been making the rounds, about half a dozen of them, inundating forums with their rants. I believe they are a minority small enough to be ostracized without diminishing the community, but not all moderators resort to extreme measures, so I abandoned a couple of sites.
However, I do sympathize with someone who is related to a bigot. I have broken with friends and family members whose attitudes were permanently irreconcilable with mine - but it always hurts.
OTH I don't think everyone with seemingly entrenched opinions on one issue is necessarily unreachable forever. I've also had small successes. Some with debate or argument, some with questions. Some change with experience, education and time - I can't take credit for that.
I've seen remarkable changes in an entire society's attitudes over my lifetime; we are not always in deadlock. Somebody must have convinced other people that their views were wrong, according to some principles those majorities did accept as valid.
Yes, well said. Most of us mellow to some extent, but only minority of people holding extreme positions will undergo major turnarounds. The small successes are nice but so rare they are more of a by-product of general chat than a realistic attempt to cut through to an ideological opposite.
Steve3007
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Steve3007 »

Alias wrote:IOW, human.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the list of insults that I quoted there are just frailties that all human beings are subject to? If so I disagree. I think it is a list of ridiculous insults thrown at 3 billion people without any basis whatsoever, which is probably worse than merely calling people sub-human (if by that we simply mean non-human).
Alias
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Alias »

Steve3007 wrote: January 15th, 2018, 3:53 am
Alias wrote:IOW, human.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the list of insults that I quoted there are just frailties that all human beings are subject to? If so I disagree. I think it is a list of ridiculous insults thrown at 3 billion people without any basis whatsoever, which is probably worse than merely calling people sub-human (if by that we simply mean non-human).
Every one of those insults accurately describes a human trait. What percent of the world's population exhibits each particular trait is impossible to calculate, but every individual human over the age of 9 months has exhibited at least one of those traits at some times in their life. Which particular humans exhibit which of those traits under what circumstances is often a matter of opinion, as expressed by other humans who also exhibit some of those traits some at some time. Bundling them up and throwing the whole load at a group of other people is usually done for propaganda purposes, but is hardly a new or unique tactic. Taking it seriously, or not, is a matter of choice.
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Christian Atheism simplified: God DID foresake Jesus on the Cross, because He's not there.

Muslim Atheism: There is no God, but God - But that is also two separate statements.

Jewish Atheism: We live as the Chosen community, with a unique Covenant with G-d - Who is not there.

Eduk wrote: January 14th, 2018, 5:17 pm Dlaw. What is a Christian atheist?
My main point in asking if you are Christian was an attempt to find unreasonable beliefs that you have. All of alternative medicine counts too, not a believer in homeopathy by any chance? I would also count all most all strong economic or political beliefs.
Now the point of all this is an attempt to point your question at yourself. What would be needed to convince you of the unreasonableness of your own unreasonable beliefs?
Because logic is not the answer for most people. For example I was listening to the radio the other and an alcoholic was explaining what it took to make them realise they needed to change. Logically they knew they were an alcoholic, logically they knew too much drink is rarely a great thing, logically they knew this is probably harming people they love. But what it took was a look of disappointment on their child's face.
My point in all this is to say that there are no simple straight forward answers. The only answer I know is to expend a great deal of effort and then you might stumble upon a solution. Failing that you will just have to hope your relative experienced an event negative enough emotionally to them that they are forced to change.
Oh by the way you seem to be describing conservativism to me? In that people are 100% responsible for all their actions.
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Steve3007 wrote: January 14th, 2018, 5:33 pm

To be fair, the person I suspect you might be thinking of didn't actually claim that you are sub-human by virtue of genetics. He just claimed that you are "emotionally labile, fickle, unpredictable, untrustworthy, disloyal, disingenuous, inherently disposed to dissimulation, dissembling, a chronic lier, cunning, manipulative and duplicitous, like a naughty, mischievous child who needs the firm supervision and guidance of man if you are not to generate, mischief, mayhem, trouble and grief" by virtue of genetics.

But seriously: do you think it was a mistake on my part to give that kind of odious worldview another platform after his original one was sunk? I'm reminded of the saying that if you mud-wrestle with a pig you both get dirty and pretty soon you realize that the pig is enjoying it. I think the "pig" in enjoying it. I originally honestly thought that the pig might be faking it. Now I don't.

As you suggest, once war has been declared maybe the time for "jaw jaw" is over.
A strident sexist is here?

Oh, no, please don't get rid of him yet.

I have plans for him.

:)
Dlaw
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Joined: January 7th, 2014, 1:56 pm

Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Alias wrote: January 14th, 2018, 8:04 pm
Greta wrote: January 14th, 2018, 5:57 pm Alias, we have someone on the forum who believes that you and I lack the mental tools to deserve suffrage. Is there any chance you could go and talk sense into him in a nice way, because my patience ran out with him weeks ago.
They've been making the rounds, about half a dozen of them, inundating forums with their rants. I believe they are a minority small enough to be ostracized without diminishing the community, but not all moderators resort to extreme measures, so I abandoned a couple of sites.
However, I do sympathize with someone who is related to a bigot. I have broken with friends and family members whose attitudes were permanently irreconcilable with mine - but it always hurts.
OTH I don't think everyone with seemingly entrenched opinions on one issue is necessarily unreachable forever. I've also had small successes. Some with debate or argument, some with questions. Some change with experience, education and time - I can't take credit for that.
I've seen remarkable changes in an entire society's attitudes over my lifetime; we are not always in deadlock. Somebody must have convinced other people that their views were wrong, according to some principles those majorities did accept as valid.
I think there are a lot of right-wing trolls who are just attracted by the sport of trolling. That may not be news to anyone.

What I mean is that, in my experience, left-wing ranters are just people who are so turned-up emotionally that they have no bandwidth left for discussion. Right-wing ranters, in my experience, are sadists who just learn a particular line of rhetoric that hurts people and then see how good they can become at it. That's why the right-wing echo chamber sounds so uniform while the left-wing "echo chamber" is a cacaphony.

The important thing to remember about right-wing ranters is that they don't really have any beliefs. All their views spring directly from narcissism, so you have to attack the person rather than the argument immediately and never relent.
Eduk
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Eduk »

ok so your explanation didn't shed any light on the concept, to me. And after reading the Christian Atheism article in Wikipedia I still can't claim to understand the concept (so I guess it makes sense that your explanation wasn't any clearer). At best it seems as arbitrary as declaring Stalin or kim jong il are 'supreme leaders' and at worst it seems to claim the literal death of Christian God. Perhaps your relative feels the same way? That your arguments make little sense and that you explain yourself poorly?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that your relative does feel this way, I'm just saying it's a possibility and wouldn't necessarily be their 'fault'.
As I said before, if you are serious, then I only know one way to convince someone of something and that is by trying to (sometimes very very hard).
Unknown means unknown.
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Eduk wrote: January 15th, 2018, 12:51 pm ok so your explanation didn't shed any light on the concept, to me. And after reading the Christian Atheism article in Wikipedia I still can't claim to understand the concept (so I guess it makes sense that your explanation wasn't any clearer). At best it seems as arbitrary as declaring Stalin or kim jong il are 'supreme leaders' and at worst it seems to claim the literal death of Christian God. Perhaps your relative feels the same way? That your arguments make little sense and that you explain yourself poorly?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that your relative does feel this way, I'm just saying it's a possibility and wouldn't necessarily be their 'fault'.
As I said before, if you are serious, then I only know one way to convince someone of something and that is by trying to (sometimes very very hard).
So in Christian theology there are two important and related questions.

One is The Problem of Evil - right? That's common to all monotheistic religions.

The other, related problem is that God did, indeed, foresake his only Son on the Cross.

Ok, one way to explain this is a sort of Zen construct of a "Godless God".

So the first requirement is the disbelief in God as active in the events of Man.

God may also be inactive in the events of the Universe.

Nevertheless, God becomes something undeniable, even as a shadow or a relief.

God becomes the truly impalpable, ineffably human-relatable order we see in the Universe - a Holy Ghost who is truly dead and gone but still haunts us (to good effect, on balance).
Eduk
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Eduk »

Oh ok that just sounds like Christianity to me, there are many and various beliefs within Christianity in my experience. Thank you for explaining more. Even if I in no way agree with your conclusions it is still interesting, to me, to hear different perspectives, if only from an academic point of view.

So allow me to put it this way. I find your relatives belief (as you have explained them) to offer no mechanism, make no predictions and have no empirical evidence. I also find your beliefs the same. So my initial question is I think pertinent.

What would it take to convince you that the God of the Christian Bible was entirely man made? What evidence would you accept?
Unknown means unknown.
Dlaw
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Re: How To Counter A Flawed Philosophy - NICELY????

Post by Dlaw »

Eduk wrote: January 15th, 2018, 2:27 pm Oh ok that just sounds like Christianity to me, there are many and various beliefs within Christianity in my experience. Thank you for explaining more. Even if I in no way agree with your conclusions it is still interesting, to me, to hear different perspectives, if only from an academic point of view.

So allow me to put it this way. I find your relatives belief (as you have explained them) to offer no mechanism, make no predictions and have no empirical evidence. I also find your beliefs the same. So my initial question is I think pertinent.

What would it take to convince you that the God of the Christian Bible was entirely man made? What evidence would you accept?
Oh, of course the God of the Bible is man-made. After all, the Bible is man-made.

That's my problem here: when it comes to one of the thorniest issues in society, I have always believed both sides.

Did I know WHY grown-ups believed in a God they knew perfectly well was no more real than Santa Claus? No, I didn't. I figured there must be some kind of reason, but it was a mystery.

Or, maybe the whole exercise was a lesson about mystery itself?

That's what I concluded.
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