Causation in subjective distinctions

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Maxcady10001
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

Post by Maxcady10001 »

I do not think the quantum zeno effect would give you free will, as that would imply control over the body and its reaction to stimulus. You cannot possibly say that you can control what stimulates your body and what does not. Whether you consciously experience something or not, whatever it is will effect in some way, and it cannot be controlled.
The quantum zeno effect is a theory of measurement, I cannot believe you are saying reality can be stopped and controlled.
Maxcady10001
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Stimulus-response is causally closed. If you are pinched, you feel pain, where in this process do you intervene and tell your body not to feel pain?
Maxcady10001
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

Post by Maxcady10001 »

It works the same for all stimulus, there is no chosen bodily reaction, you do not decide whether something feels good or bad.
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Frost
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Maxcady10001 wrote: February 6th, 2018, 9:51 pm I do not think the quantum zeno effect would give you free will, as that would imply control over the body and its reaction to stimulus. You cannot possibly say that you can control what stimulates your body and what does not. Whether you consciously experience something or not, whatever it is will effect in some way, and it cannot be controlled.
There is not causal closure or determinism. There is no straight stimulus --> response.
Maxcady10001 wrote: February 6th, 2018, 9:51 pm The quantum zeno effect is a theory of measurement, I cannot believe you are saying reality can be stopped and controlled.
The quantum Zeno effect precisely says reality can be controlled. You can, quite literally, stop a radioactive molecule from decaying through the quantum Zeno effect.
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Frost
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Maxcady10001 wrote: February 6th, 2018, 10:04 pm Stimulus-response is causally closed. If you are pinched, you feel pain, where in this process do you intervene and tell your body not to feel pain?
The physical world is not causally closed. There are of course physical reactions, but when it comes to meaning, there is no stimulus-->response with semantics. That is not possible because there is no way to get from the physics to the semantics.

And skilled mediators can completely disassociate from pain.
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Frost
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Maxcady10001 wrote: February 6th, 2018, 10:05 pm It works the same for all stimulus, there is no chosen bodily reaction, you do not decide whether something feels good or bad.
You're treating this like behaviorism. In the areas we are talking about relating to free will involve semantics, not just getting electrical shocks.

How do you get from the physical stimulus to the semantics? And then how does the semantics go back to the physics? Please describe it in physical causal terms.
Maxcady10001
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Of course people that torture their bodies for years on end, are numb in their responses to stimulus.

The quantum zeno effect cannot be applied to bodily reactions. Once again where do you come in, between the pinch and the feeling of pain? Observing it does not make it go away.

As to physics to semantics, emotional reactions are an easy example. A woman sees her son for the first time in 15 years, upon seeing him she blurts out whatever she blurts out, there, she has had a feeling and the feeling has caused certain memories to occur once again, and whatever she would say to him in the past she says again.
When the lady sees her son, the neural pattern in the visual cortex associated with her son, is activated, as well as the associated emotional response. Other neural patterns activated in the visual cortex are the symbols we know as language that would communicate her feelings, she experiences the symbols consciously.
Meaning has just been communicated. How could she have reacted differently?
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Frost
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

Post by Frost »

Maxcady10001 wrote: February 7th, 2018, 12:31 am Of course people that torture their bodies for years on end, are numb in their responses to stimulus.
No. That's not what I said.
Maxcady10001 wrote: February 7th, 2018, 12:31 am The quantum zeno effect cannot be applied to bodily reactions. Once again where do you come in, between the pinch and the feeling of pain? Observing it does not make it go away.
No one is claiming that in such normal cases that there is free will. This is irrelevant. Besides, there are meditators that can disassociate from the pain, so they obviously do enter somehow.
Maxcady10001 wrote: February 7th, 2018, 12:31 am As to physics to semantics, emotional reactions are an easy example. A woman sees her son for the first time in 15 years, upon seeing him she blurts out whatever she blurts out, there, she has had a feeling and the feeling has caused certain memories to occur once again, and whatever she would say to him in the past she says again.
When the lady sees her son, the neural pattern in the visual cortex associated with her son, is activated, as well as the associated emotional response. Other neural patterns activated in the visual cortex are the symbols we know as language that would communicate her feelings, she experiences the symbols consciously.
Meaning has just been communicated. How could she have reacted differently?
Be more specific. How do light waves of particular patterns and frequencies come to mean anything?
Maxcady10001
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

Post by Maxcady10001 »

To disassociate is different from not feeling it. They disassociate, but they undoubtedly feel the initial pinch.

I don't know at all how far i'm willing to go in this discussion, but there is a neurological explanation for understanding patterns of light. From the retina to the optic nerve to different areas of the brain for processing and recognition. However, there is no way i'm writing a paper on this website.
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Frost
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

Post by Frost »

Maxcady10001 wrote: February 7th, 2018, 12:54 am To disassociate is different from not feeling it. They disassociate, but they undoubtedly feel the initial pinch.
No, they don't if given time to prepare.
Maxcady10001 wrote: February 7th, 2018, 12:54 am I don't know at all how far i'm willing to go in this discussion, but there is a neurological explanation for understanding patterns of light. From the retina to the optic nerve to different areas of the brain for processing and recognition. However, there is no way i'm writing a paper on this website.
Okay, so how do you get from those physical processes to semantics? How do you get meaning? I hope you're seeing that I'm getting at the Chinese Room problem.

My point is that does not happen just in physical terms and is not a matter of physical causation. The conscious awareness of the mind enters dynamically into the physical system of the brain, which prevents causal closure in the physical system of the brain. The mind can act on meaning, which is is not a matter of physical causation. There is agency and the agent acts which is made possible through quantum Zeno probing actions that enter causally in the dynamics of neural nets.
Maxcady10001
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

Post by Maxcady10001 »

What is meaning, but associated memories? I don't see why you keep separating what we remember from meaning. And isn't meaning stored in the brain's neurons? Aren't those neurons physical? Aren't the electro-chemicals flowing through the brain physical?
Maxcady10001
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

Post by Maxcady10001 »

What isn't physical in the process you're describing?
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