Causation in subjective distinctions

[Frost]

I never said it was determined by the formalization, I said it was determined by stimulus.

So where does the determinism end?

[Maxcady10001]

Why does it need to? Isn't will as the totality of your being enough?

[Frost]

Why does it need to? Isn't will as the totality of your being enough?

It needs to because physics isn't deterministic....

[Maxcady10001]

Well how do you get free will from physics?

[Frost]

Well how do you get free will from physics?

Wow! What a question

The first requirement is that physics is not deterministic/causally closed. Orthodox quantum theory is not. But that doesn't get you free will, but it is a necessary condition. I will just make a really broad claim since we need to start with some direction, but I would use something like Integrated Information Theory to describe how intrinsic information structures can form in potential physical systems which result in experiential states. These intrinsic information structures, because of their association with awareness/experience, have the power to actualize quantum states. These "probing actions" in the physical brain permit a psycho-physical interaction with the outside world. This is an agent acting in the world. It may appear to be simply indeterministic from the third person perspective, but from the intrinsic perspective the agent acted.

[Maxcady10001]

, have the power to actualize quantum states. These "probing actions" in the physical brain permit a psycho-physical interaction with the outside world

What are the probing actions if not intention? What is intention if not the result of stimulus?

[Frost]

, have the power to actualize quantum states. These "probing actions" in the physical brain permit a psycho-physical interaction with the outside world

What are the probing actions if not intention? What is intention if not the result of stimulus?

I appreciate your probing questions. Certainly stimuli will impact and influence action, and sometimes in a causal manner (such as retracting your hand from a hot stove), but there is a causal gap in the physics which can be exploited by consciousness. It can detach from stimuli and direct the action of the organism differently. Again, this is made possible due to the lack of causal closure of the physical and the leeway provided by the uncertainty principle. Intrinsic informational structures, or experiential feeling states, are directing the physical, not that there is the physical mind directing the physical brain. There is an interaction between the subjective and objective modes of existence.

[Maxcady10001]

I appreciate your probing questions.

I got ya

It can detach from stimuli and direct the action of the organism differently. Again, this is made possible due to the lack of causal closure of the physical and the leeway provided by the uncertainty principle.

How does consciousness detach from stimuli? That does not make sense, assuming there could be a detachment from stimuli, consciousness could not have an effect on anything else while detached, once again where is the free will? And what do you mean leeway provided by the uncertainty principle? That is just probabilistic, it certainly doesn't get you free will.

[Frost]

It can detach from stimuli and direct the action of the organism differently. Again, this is made possible due to the lack of causal closure of the physical and the leeway provided by the uncertainty principle.

How does consciousness detach from stimuli? That does not make sense, assuming there could be a detachment from stimuli, consciousness could not have an effect on anything else while detached, once again where is the free will? And what do you mean leeway provided by the uncertainty principle? That is just probabilistic, it certainly doesn't get you free will.

The uncertainty principle provides the leeway that consciousness exploits, not that it provides free will. Consciousness is an intrinsic information structure, not a physical system. It is not causally or ontologically reducible, but since the experiential states actualize the physical system, in between experiential states the physical system of the brain can evolve. This is how the non-physical consciousness can enter into the physical dynamics, and its probing actions can then direct it to actualize a different brain state or perhaps through imagination actualize a novel brain state. This is not a libertarian free will in that it is not somehow independent of the physical brain, but neither is it identical with the physical brain.

[Maxcady10001]

From what I've read, all of this is happening unconsciously, so there is still no free will. And once again the probing action is actualizing brain states based on what? Stimulus.

[Frost]

From what I've read, all of this is happening unconsciously, so there is still no free will. And once again the probing action is actualizing brain states based on what? Stimulus.

Unconscious cognition has no experience so there is no actualization of the quantum state. It is with the experiential state that the quantum state is actualized.

The probing action is actualizing brain states based on the quantum Zeno effect, not a stimulus.

[Maxcady10001]

And how do actualized brain states get you free will? You're mentioning these things as though they within our control, but obviously they are not. We are no where near free will.
Also, if experiential states actualize quantum states, what is the difference between that and stimulus?

[Maxcady10001]

If it takes an experiential state to actualize a quantum state, that is definitely not free will.

[Syamsu]

How subjective opinions are formed.

There are alternative futures A and B, A is made the present, meaning A is chosen.
What was it that made the choice turn out A?
The answer to this question is a choice between X and Y, resulting in a subjective opinion about what it was that made the choice turn out A.

Both opinions that X or Y made the choice turn out A are equallly logically valid.
The existence of X and Y is therefore a matter of opinion.

It is equally valid to form an opinion that a painting is beautiful as it is to form the opinion the painting is ugly.
The opinion is formed by spontaneous expression of emotion with free will, choosing the opinion.
To express the opinion the painting is beautiful claims the existence of a love for the way the painting looks, out of which love the opinion was chosen.

God, the soul, the spirit, emotions, these terms are all defined as doing the job of making choices. Therefore the existence of them is a matter of subjective opinion.

It is not just people which have alternative futures available, any of which can be made the present. In the beginning there first were the alternative futures available of a universe or no universe. Freedom is everywhere in the universe, and is at the basis of it. For every choice anywhere subjective opinion supplies the answer what it was that made the choice turn out the way it did.

Objective facts apply to what has been chosen. A fact is obtained by making a 1 to 1 corresponding model of a creation. A model in the form of words, or mathematics.

[Frost]

And how do actualized brain states get you free will? You're mentioning these things as though they within our control, but obviously they are not. We are no where near free will.
Also, if experiential states actualize quantum states, what is the difference between that and stimulus?

"Obviously they are not"? We can direct the quantum Zeno effect with conscious observations.

The difference between that and a stimulus is that there is no causal closure, so there can be no deterministic stimulus-response effect. You cannot get physical causation from semantics, and quantum theory is not causally closed and deterministic.