Causation in subjective distinctions

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Maxcady10001
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

Post by Maxcady10001 »

If that's not what you're saying than how do thoughts become increasing free?
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Sorry, how does behavior become increasingly free?
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Frost
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Maxcady10001 wrote: February 3rd, 2018, 5:36 pm Sorry, how does behavior become increasingly free?
Well, one prime example is acting based on reasons rather than desires. Instead of acting on immediate desires, one can use reason to determine that one should act otherwise.
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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To use reason, or to understand memory and its semantics,is to remember, that is, the result of a previous line of action. One does not act on an impulse because one remembers the consequences, or what the intuited (intuition is also memory based) consequences are, and the associated feeling states, any anxiety or sadness or happiness associated with what the consequences are believed to be. Reason is not separate from remembering, so I don't see how behavior becomes free when however we behave is based on a previous line of experience.
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Frost
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Maxcady10001 wrote: February 3rd, 2018, 5:46 pm To use reason, or to understand memory and its semantics,is to remember, that is, the result of a previous line of action. One does not act on an impulse because one remembers the consequences, or what the intuited (intuition is also memory based) consequences are, and the associated feeling states, any anxiety or sadness or happiness associated with what the consequences are believed to be. Reason is not separate from remembering, so I don't see how behavior becomes free when however we behave is based on a previous line of experience.
That our previous experience influences future experience does not prevent free action. The point is that understanding the semantic contents of thoughts and reasoning with them is not a matter of physical causation. Humans use semantics in the reasoning process, and to act on reasons rather than impulses is to act more freely. To even make a mental decision is an action which does not have antecedent causally sufficient conditions. One must act in the form of decision, and to act out that decision in the world further action is required, and sustained effort, or additional action, may be needed to bring that decision to fruition. In every action there is lack of causal closure and the effects of conscious choice enters into the dynamics of the physical system of the brain.
Maxcady10001
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Frost wrote:That our previous experience influences future experience does not prevent free action.
It does, as all actions are now dictated by past experiences.
Frost wrote:One must act in the form of decision, and to act out that decision in the world further action is required, and sustained effort, or additional action, may be needed to bring that decision to fruition. In every action there is lack of causal closure and the effects of conscious choice enters into the dynamics of the physical system of the brain.
The decision is formed unconsciously, and how much effort is required is not at all something within our control, that is externally determined. How much effort is required to build a two foot wall? I don't know, it depends on external factors (what material is being used, the shape, stability). Whether or not a wall is to be built is based on stimulus, maybe to keep the dog in, a wall needs to be built. The conscious choice we experience is also completely stimulus based, as the material and size of the wall is determined by the breed of dog. I don't see how this is free?
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Frost
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Maxcady10001 wrote: February 3rd, 2018, 6:10 pm
Frost wrote:That our previous experience influences future experience does not prevent free action.
It does, as all actions are now dictated by past experiences.
No, they aren't. There are not antecedent causally sufficient conditions. Past experience biases future behavior, but that does not mean future behavior is determined. There is not causal closure nor determinism in physics, so that is an untenable position.
Maxcady10001 wrote: February 3rd, 2018, 6:10 pm The decision is formed unconsciously, and how much effort is required is not at all something within our control, that is externally determined. How much effort is required to build a two foot wall? I don't know, it depends on external factors (what material is being used, the shape, stability). Whether or not a wall is to be built is based on stimulus, maybe to keep the dog in, a wall needs to be built. The conscious choice we experience is also completely stimulus based, as the material and size of the wall is determined by the breed of dog. I don't see how this is free?
Conscious reasoning is not formed unconsciously. That's the point of the second paper that I provided. There are many experimental designs that demonstrate that conscious thought is disrupted in certain tasks where unconscious cognition would not be.
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Frost wrote:Conscious reasoning is not formed unconsciously.
Can you tell me the EXACT reason for your doing anything?
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Frost
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Maxcady10001 wrote: February 3rd, 2018, 6:19 pm
Frost wrote:Conscious reasoning is not formed unconsciously.
Can you tell me the EXACT reason for your doing anything?
What do you mean by exact? There are various reasons that can be made effective, but that does not mean that there is not unconscious cognition which contributes to it, nor that there are not subconscious influences.

Causation does not have to be an all or nothing thing. It is an emergent spatiotemporal maximum of influence. That can be maximized in conscious thought and action, but that does not mean there were no other factors.
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Frost wrote:Causation does not have to be an all or nothing thing. It is an emergent spatiotemporal maximum of influence. That can be maximized in conscious thought and action, but that does not mean there were no other factors.
To make a claim for free will, causation does have to be all or nothing, as a person cannot claim responsibility for anything if it is not on their decision alone. And yes, past experience is causally sufficient for future behavior, your next response is dictated by your past experiences, how can you possibly say otherwise?
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Frost
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Maxcady10001 wrote: February 3rd, 2018, 6:31 pm To make a claim for free will, causation does have to be all or nothing, as a person cannot claim responsibility for anything if it is not on their decision alone. And yes, past experience is causally sufficient for future behavior, your next response is dictated by your past experiences, how can you possibly say otherwise?
Because that's nomologically impossible based on quantum theory :)
Maxcady10001
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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How exactly based on quantum theory? Are you citing the Orthodox Von Neumann Formalization?
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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If you're referring to the Von Neumann Formalization, I don't believe that at all makes a case for free will, as process 1 is completely reliant on stimulus, whether that be internal or external, the action of the probe is completely dependent on its stimulants. A fact which is completely left out of all of the articles I read of people citing the Von Neumann Formalization in favor of free will. It is obvious that anything unrestrained does not act, so if the probing action was unrestrained it would not be an action or a probe, as a probe has intention and intention is determined by stimulus, I eat because of physiological stimulus.
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Frost
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

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Maxcady10001 wrote: February 3rd, 2018, 7:05 pm If you're referring to the Von Neumann Formalization, I don't believe that at all makes a case for free will, as process 1 is completely reliant on stimulus, whether that be internal or external, the action of the probe is completely dependent on its stimulants. A fact which is completely left out of all of the articles I read of people citing the Von Neumann Formalization in favor of free will. It is obvious that anything unrestrained does not act, so if the probing action was unrestrained it would not be an action or a probe, as a probe has intention and intention is determined by stimulus, I eat because of physiological stimulus.
No, process 1 is not determined or constrained by the formalization. Nor could it be, since the formalization is not deterministic.
Maxcady10001
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Re: Causation in subjective distinctions

Post by Maxcady10001 »

I never said it was determined by the formalization, I said it was determined by stimulus.
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