Meditation on the zeroth philosophy

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Post Reply
User avatar
Hyperborean
New Trial Member
Posts: 1
Joined: February 1st, 2018, 1:23 am

Meditation on the zeroth philosophy

Post by Hyperborean »

Cogito ergo sum... the sentence that has been heard by lot of us.

Atoms are made of electrons, neutrons and protons. Another sentence which was heard by many of us. The so called pillar of our material world.

The basic difference between these two “facts” is that one has been outdated. Not because it is false but because of our extended understanding through the enhanced technology.

Nearly 400 years passed since the publication of Descartes’ work, however we still have not got decent or proper explanation to the very essential question, does one exist outside the world which it can perceive? Like an objective reality? Or there is no other existence but our subjective reality begotten by our own mind?

On this topic my desire is to go back as far as we can to the non-existing state based on the statement: cogito ergo sum.

I am assuming that we exist based only on this statement. I do not claim any further support. Please bear this in mind when arguing. My personal view on this matter remains irrelevant at this point.

Just some basic questions to start with:

Does the lack of conscious thinking mean the lack of existence? As we do not consciously think in deep sleep or at least we do not have power over our conscious should this mean we are not existing in this state?

Do we have power over our conscous at all, or we are only the spectators of our flowing thoughts? And so, should we be aware of our thoughts to conclude that we are existing?

Does the lower brain activitie mean “less existing”? Is this the way of achieving non-existing state?

Last but not least might existence be stopped by the cease of our heartbeat when there is no known way to do the “cogito”? Assuming death is a similar non conscious state like deep sleeping.

I would be really glad to see different thoughts on this matter. Remember the basic question is, if we do exist (proven by Decartes’ statement) is it only based on our perception or is there more, out in the world?
Does one exist in the universe, or the universe only exists in its mind?
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Meditation on the zeroth philosophy

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

I've been thinking about this a fair amount lately. I have reason to believe that functionalism is correct. My understanding is that in any system where there is something "mental" going on, there are two descriptions of that system: the physical description and the functional description. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy puts it this way:
Functionalism is the doctrine that what makes something a thought, desire, pain (or any other type of mental state) depends not on its internal [phyiscal] constitution, but solely on its function, or the role it plays, in the cognitive system of which it is a part. More precisely, functionalist theories take the identity of a mental state to be determined by its causal relations to sensory stimulations, other mental states, and behavior.
Now the functional description is said to be multiply-realizable, i.e., the functional description doesn't tell you anything about the physical details of the system. In point of fact, from the subjective (functional) perspective there doesn't need to be any physical system at all. That's why Descartes's account is completely compatible with dualism as well as a soul that can continue after the body dies.

Now the problem is we seem to experience an outer world, and part of that outer world seems to include other functional systems besides us. With some effort we can see how physical descriptions generate those functional descriptions. So while it's still possible from our subjective view that we are disembodied souls, the only thing we ever see out there are embodied souls, so to speak, and the question becomes what reason do we have to think we are different from what we see out there.

*
User avatar
QuarterMaster69
New Trial Member
Posts: 19
Joined: March 3rd, 2018, 6:57 pm

Re: Meditation on the zeroth philosophy

Post by QuarterMaster69 »

Hyperborean wrote: February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am Does the lack of conscious thinking mean the lack of existence? As we do not consciously think in deep sleep or at least we do not have power over our conscious should this mean we are not existing in this state?
The lack of conscious thinking is existence in its purest state. It's called meditation.
Hyperborean wrote: February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am Do we have power over our conscous at all, or we are only the spectators of our flowing thoughts? And so, should we be aware of our thoughts to conclude that we are existing?
Yes, watch TV and you have power over your consciousness in that you forget about it. You exist even when you are not aware of your thoughts.
Hyperborean wrote: February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am Does the lower brain activitie mean “less existing”? Is this the way of achieving non-existing state?
The lower brain is doing 99% of the existing for you by controlling the incredibly complex human biology that's keeping you alive. The body can exist without consciousness as is obvious in people in prolonged vegetative states.
Hyperborean wrote: February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am Last but not least might existence be stopped by the cease of our heartbeat when there is no known way to do the “cogito”? Assuming death is a similar non conscious state like deep sleeping.
Existence continues without you as long as other conscious humans are around.
Hyperborean wrote: February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am I would be really glad to see different thoughts on this matter. Remember the basic question is, if we do exist (proven by Decartes’ statement) is it only based on our perception or is there more, out in the world?
Does one exist in the universe, or the universe only exists in its mind?
Both. One exists in the universe and the universe exists in the mind.
User avatar
Atreyu
Posts: 1737
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Meditation on the zeroth philosophy

Post by Atreyu »

Hyperborean wrote: February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am
Does the lack of conscious thinking mean the lack of existence? As we do not consciously think in deep sleep or at least we do not have power over our conscious should this mean we are not existing in this state?
No. A lack of consciousness merely means a lack of conscious existence. Unconscious things can also exist. The question is are we, and how much, and how often, conscious? Because the question of how conscious we are (or even if we are) cannot be ascertained at first glance, i.e. this is not "common sense".
Do we have power over our conscous at all, or we are only the spectators of our flowing thoughts? And so, should we be aware of our thoughts to conclude that we are existing?
We normally are not conscious, and indeed are merely 'spectators of our flowing thoughts'. However, being aware of our thoughts would not prove our existence. It would merely show that something is there, something we ordinarily call 'our minds'.
Does the lower brain activity mean “less existing”? Is this the way of achieving non-existing state?
Well, lower brain activity is "less conscious", but it exists just as any other part of ourselves does. Even a 'brain-dead' person exists.
Last but not least might existence be stopped by the cease of our heartbeat when there is no known way to do the “cogito”? Assuming death is a similar non conscious state like deep sleeping.
Yes, at death we might cease to exist. That's a possibility. However, I'm convinced that it's an unlikely one.
Remember the basic question is, if we do exist (proven by Decartes’ statement) is it only based on our perception or is there more, out in the world?
Descartes' statement only proves that something exists. It does not prove the existence of the 'I'. It merely reveals a functioning mind, not the ultimate nature of such a mind, nor of ourselves.
Does one exist in the universe, or the universe only exists in its mind?
Both. We exist in the Universe, and we have an idea about what the Universe is. The Universe and ourselves exist, but our perception/cognition of ourselves and the Universe is subjective.
Spectrum
Posts: 5161
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Meditation on the zeroth philosophy

Post by Spectrum »

Hyperborean wrote: February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am Does one exist in the universe, or the universe only exists in its mind?
One exists in the universe which exists in the mind[s] which exists in the universe, which exists in the mind[s], which exists in the universe, which exists in the mind[s], which exists in the universe, which exists in the mind[s], which exists in the universe, .....

So,
Chop Wood, Carry Water ....
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
User avatar
ironchieftain
New Trial Member
Posts: 1
Joined: November 8th, 2020, 3:01 am

Re: Meditation on the zeroth philosophy

Post by ironchieftain »

Nearly 400 years passed since the publication of Descartes’ work, however we still have not got decent or proper explanation to the very essential question, does one exist outside the world which it can perceive? Like an objective reality? Or there is no other existence but our subjective reality begotten by our own mind?

I have a bit of a different view on Descartes' Meditations. There is definitely an objective world out there, the one we learn through our senses and minds, through the experiences accumulated in generations. The world is always objective but there might be still a lot that we won't know, and it would create a false confidence. Let's imagine million years ago, a men see the lightning, it exist objectively, but back then people didn't know what is it and even though they perceive the objective reality through own senses and therefore potentially disturbing it, they can't explain what is it. They frightened and assigned the event to God. As the time passed, people learned that lighting occur during the storm and in the certain seasons, etc.

Now we know that lighting as it is, we can see the objective reality and perceive it correctly. We significantly proven it over the time, what lighting is. Now when we looking in space, we don't really know much and therefore might not see the objective reality. It's there but we subjectively can't see it, because we simply didn't accumulate enough experience and out mental frames missing required info.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021