Meditation on the zeroth philosophy
- Hyperborean
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Meditation on the zeroth philosophy
Atoms are made of electrons, neutrons and protons. Another sentence which was heard by many of us. The so called pillar of our material world.
The basic difference between these two “facts” is that one has been outdated. Not because it is false but because of our extended understanding through the enhanced technology.
Nearly 400 years passed since the publication of Descartes’ work, however we still have not got decent or proper explanation to the very essential question, does one exist outside the world which it can perceive? Like an objective reality? Or there is no other existence but our subjective reality begotten by our own mind?
On this topic my desire is to go back as far as we can to the non-existing state based on the statement: cogito ergo sum.
I am assuming that we exist based only on this statement. I do not claim any further support. Please bear this in mind when arguing. My personal view on this matter remains irrelevant at this point.
Just some basic questions to start with:
Does the lack of conscious thinking mean the lack of existence? As we do not consciously think in deep sleep or at least we do not have power over our conscious should this mean we are not existing in this state?
Do we have power over our conscous at all, or we are only the spectators of our flowing thoughts? And so, should we be aware of our thoughts to conclude that we are existing?
Does the lower brain activitie mean “less existing”? Is this the way of achieving non-existing state?
Last but not least might existence be stopped by the cease of our heartbeat when there is no known way to do the “cogito”? Assuming death is a similar non conscious state like deep sleeping.
I would be really glad to see different thoughts on this matter. Remember the basic question is, if we do exist (proven by Decartes’ statement) is it only based on our perception or is there more, out in the world?
Does one exist in the universe, or the universe only exists in its mind?
- JamesOfSeattle
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Re: Meditation on the zeroth philosophy
Now the functional description is said to be multiply-realizable, i.e., the functional description doesn't tell you anything about the physical details of the system. In point of fact, from the subjective (functional) perspective there doesn't need to be any physical system at all. That's why Descartes's account is completely compatible with dualism as well as a soul that can continue after the body dies.Functionalism is the doctrine that what makes something a thought, desire, pain (or any other type of mental state) depends not on its internal [phyiscal] constitution, but solely on its function, or the role it plays, in the cognitive system of which it is a part. More precisely, functionalist theories take the identity of a mental state to be determined by its causal relations to sensory stimulations, other mental states, and behavior.
Now the problem is we seem to experience an outer world, and part of that outer world seems to include other functional systems besides us. With some effort we can see how physical descriptions generate those functional descriptions. So while it's still possible from our subjective view that we are disembodied souls, the only thing we ever see out there are embodied souls, so to speak, and the question becomes what reason do we have to think we are different from what we see out there.
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- QuarterMaster69
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Re: Meditation on the zeroth philosophy
The lack of conscious thinking is existence in its purest state. It's called meditation.Hyperborean wrote: ↑February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am Does the lack of conscious thinking mean the lack of existence? As we do not consciously think in deep sleep or at least we do not have power over our conscious should this mean we are not existing in this state?
Yes, watch TV and you have power over your consciousness in that you forget about it. You exist even when you are not aware of your thoughts.Hyperborean wrote: ↑February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am Do we have power over our conscous at all, or we are only the spectators of our flowing thoughts? And so, should we be aware of our thoughts to conclude that we are existing?
The lower brain is doing 99% of the existing for you by controlling the incredibly complex human biology that's keeping you alive. The body can exist without consciousness as is obvious in people in prolonged vegetative states.Hyperborean wrote: ↑February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am Does the lower brain activitie mean “less existing”? Is this the way of achieving non-existing state?
Existence continues without you as long as other conscious humans are around.Hyperborean wrote: ↑February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am Last but not least might existence be stopped by the cease of our heartbeat when there is no known way to do the “cogito”? Assuming death is a similar non conscious state like deep sleeping.
Both. One exists in the universe and the universe exists in the mind.Hyperborean wrote: ↑February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am I would be really glad to see different thoughts on this matter. Remember the basic question is, if we do exist (proven by Decartes’ statement) is it only based on our perception or is there more, out in the world?
Does one exist in the universe, or the universe only exists in its mind?
- Atreyu
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Re: Meditation on the zeroth philosophy
No. A lack of consciousness merely means a lack of conscious existence. Unconscious things can also exist. The question is are we, and how much, and how often, conscious? Because the question of how conscious we are (or even if we are) cannot be ascertained at first glance, i.e. this is not "common sense".Hyperborean wrote: ↑February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am
Does the lack of conscious thinking mean the lack of existence? As we do not consciously think in deep sleep or at least we do not have power over our conscious should this mean we are not existing in this state?
We normally are not conscious, and indeed are merely 'spectators of our flowing thoughts'. However, being aware of our thoughts would not prove our existence. It would merely show that something is there, something we ordinarily call 'our minds'.Do we have power over our conscous at all, or we are only the spectators of our flowing thoughts? And so, should we be aware of our thoughts to conclude that we are existing?
Well, lower brain activity is "less conscious", but it exists just as any other part of ourselves does. Even a 'brain-dead' person exists.Does the lower brain activity mean “less existing”? Is this the way of achieving non-existing state?
Yes, at death we might cease to exist. That's a possibility. However, I'm convinced that it's an unlikely one.Last but not least might existence be stopped by the cease of our heartbeat when there is no known way to do the “cogito”? Assuming death is a similar non conscious state like deep sleeping.
Descartes' statement only proves that something exists. It does not prove the existence of the 'I'. It merely reveals a functioning mind, not the ultimate nature of such a mind, nor of ourselves.Remember the basic question is, if we do exist (proven by Decartes’ statement) is it only based on our perception or is there more, out in the world?
Both. We exist in the Universe, and we have an idea about what the Universe is. The Universe and ourselves exist, but our perception/cognition of ourselves and the Universe is subjective.Does one exist in the universe, or the universe only exists in its mind?
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Re: Meditation on the zeroth philosophy
One exists in the universe which exists in the mind[s] which exists in the universe, which exists in the mind[s], which exists in the universe, which exists in the mind[s], which exists in the universe, which exists in the mind[s], which exists in the universe, .....Hyperborean wrote: ↑February 1st, 2018, 1:37 am Does one exist in the universe, or the universe only exists in its mind?
So,
Chop Wood, Carry Water ....
- ironchieftain
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Re: Meditation on the zeroth philosophy
I have a bit of a different view on Descartes' Meditations. There is definitely an objective world out there, the one we learn through our senses and minds, through the experiences accumulated in generations. The world is always objective but there might be still a lot that we won't know, and it would create a false confidence. Let's imagine million years ago, a men see the lightning, it exist objectively, but back then people didn't know what is it and even though they perceive the objective reality through own senses and therefore potentially disturbing it, they can't explain what is it. They frightened and assigned the event to God. As the time passed, people learned that lighting occur during the storm and in the certain seasons, etc.
Now we know that lighting as it is, we can see the objective reality and perceive it correctly. We significantly proven it over the time, what lighting is. Now when we looking in space, we don't really know much and therefore might not see the objective reality. It's there but we subjectively can't see it, because we simply didn't accumulate enough experience and out mental frames missing required info.
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