The hidden agenda of the education system

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Steve3007
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

I'll take that as a yes.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Steve3007 wrote: February 13th, 2018, 3:25 am
Namelesss wrote:Although having nothing to do with the formal 'education' system for over a decade, I can certainly observe the 'pudding' of it's spew.
The common intellect brought us (and supports) Trump. Need I offer more?
If you're not a fan of Trump, perhaps you could console yourself with the fact that support for Trump tends to be inversely correlated with educational attainment? i.e. the further people have progressed through the US educational systems the less likely they are to support him. So if you don't like him, wouldn't that be a reason for you to give three cheers for American education?
This seems like, at least potentially, the broken clock getting the time right twice a day but not most of it.
Steve3007
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

I guess so.

Of course, the converse of what I said is also true. For people who give three cheers to Trump, the inverse correlation that I noted will presumably make them cynical about the US education system, as Nameless seems to be.
Namelesss
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Namelesss »

Steve3007 wrote: February 19th, 2018, 6:14 pm I guess so.

Of course, the converse of what I said is also true. For people who give three cheers to Trump, the inverse correlation that I noted will presumably make them cynical about the US education system, as Nameless seems to be.
To clarify (I find it odious to be talked about rather than to), my thoughts and feelings about the 'education system' in Amerika comes from experience/Knowledge.
It amazes me that 'Trump' is even inserted into... 'this'... in your need to 'minimalize and dismiss' what you claim as "also true"!

nameless OUT.
Steve3007
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Namelesss wrote:To clarify (I find it odious to be talked about rather than to), my thoughts and feelings about the 'education system' in Amerika comes from experience/Knowledge.
Fair enough. You presumably know more about the US education system than me. But I still find it slightly odd that you apparently believe it's not necessary to learn anything about Quantum Mechanics (or, by extension, other subjects) in order to draw conclusions about it. Odd that you consider learning anything about the subject to be "irrelevant in the understanding the 'mystical' depths and implications of QM" as you put it.

I'm not saying you need to be an expert. But you should at least understand a little bit about the foundation of classical mechanics on which quantum mechanics is built - the reason why it was considered necessary to develop it. There are plenty of reasonably accessible books on the subject.
Namelesss
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Namelesss »

Steve3007 wrote: February 20th, 2018, 6:38 am
Namelesss wrote:To clarify (I find it odious to be talked about rather than to), my thoughts and feelings about the 'education system' in Amerika comes from experience/Knowledge.
Fair enough. You presumably know more about the US education system than me. But I still find it slightly odd that you apparently believe it's not necessary to learn anything about Quantum Mechanics (or, by extension, other subjects) in order to draw conclusions about it.

I also find it odious to be deliberately misrepresented.
I never said that "it's not necessary to learn anything about Quantum Mechanics (or, by extension, other subjects) in order to draw conclusions about it", nor implied it.
I did say that one does not need to (re)learn every number, every equation, every failed hypothesis..., that brings one from absolute ignorance to cutting edge theory, and beyond.
The wheel need not be reinvented, nor do I need the inventor's life history, for me to use it to invent the auto. If it does, there is a hoard of mentally facile number-crunchers just dying to prove some equation or theory to be wrong!
If they have yet to dent it, then I am willing to accept, tentatively, that 'structure' that is built above such a foundation. The structure appears consistent, to hold, to explain, to predict (with 100% accuracy), and is yet to be refuted.
So with that, and personal experience, and logic, I can use that structure as tentatively accepted data in an artistically synthesized larger picture theory (lpt).
Ready, always, to be adjusted if some foundational tidbit is found to be erroneous.
The best theories synthesize data from diverse sources!
Odd that you consider learning anything about the subject to be "irrelevant in the understanding the 'mystical' depths and implications of QM" as you put it.
"Anything"? Really?
It would be odd, indeed, had I ever said such a thing.

Capisce'?

I find that with this, we appear to have drifted from the topic at hand, and I said everything that I had to say on that subject; the 'educational system' is government owned. Take that as one may.

Best of all, it was created to keep the kids out of the parent's hair so they can get on with their work. *__-

A couple of interesting reads re; education;

The Educational System Was Designed to Keep Us Uneducated and Docile
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=27316

Doing Well v. Doing Good
http://uselesstree.typepad.com/useless_ ... -good.html
Namelesss
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Namelesss »

Yeah, I'll double down on this one;

The Educational System Was Designed to Keep Us Uneducated and Docile
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=27316

*__-
Steve3007
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Namelesss wrote:I did say that one does not need to (re)learn every number, every equation, every failed hypothesis..., that brings one from absolute ignorance to cutting edge theory, and beyond.
You didn't actually say that either. You made various claims about what QM has discovered about Reality and Consciousness. You claimed that "other sciences" have "avoided it as it cannot be quantized/measured, put in flasks...", whatever that means. (Are you under the impression that QM has nothing to do with measuring things?!?). You then said something about lab assistants crunching numbers, talked about somebody laughing at Einstein and finished off by stating that an understanding of the foundations of modern physics is irrelevant.

Still, you've clarified what you meant now.

If you think that the foundations of QM, such as Newtonian/classical mechanics are "failed hypotheses" that can be dismissed un-read because they've been superseded, then you don't understand how the development of theories of physics works. There's nothing wrong with that. Most of us are ignorant of most subjects. What is wrong is if you then go on to make claims about that subject.

Anyway, as I said, I have no experience of the US education system. For all I know it may indeed be designed to keep people uneducated and docile as you've said. But if that were true I wouldn't expect there to be any well educated American physicists. Since American physicists, such as Richard Feynman who you quoted (plus many, many others), clearly have made huge contributions to the subject, obviously what you've said can't be entirely true. Feynman apparently attended Far Rockaway High School in Queens - a public high school in New York. So I guess it isn't, or wasn't, true of that school at least.

My own experience of the UK education system is that it is far from perfect but, in the specific example of physics which we're considering here, it taught me the foundations that were necessary to go on and study the subject at University. So it was not without use.
Namelesss
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Namelesss »

Steve3007 wrote: February 20th, 2018, 8:17 amIf you think that the foundations of QM, such as Newtonian/classical mechanics are "failed hypotheses"
Once again you have put words in my mouth.
I mentioned 'failed theories' in general, and you put absurd specific words in mymouth in another attempt to discredit what I am saying.
It is happening too often here and I am done with you.
Do it to someone else.
that can be dismissed un-read because they've been superseded, then you don't understand how the development of theories of physics works. There's nothing wrong with that.
And one more patronizing attempt to paint yourself in some special light by painting me in a dark, lying, light from some ego problem, or other.
Perhaps this will help;
I am ignorant of everything, and you are da mastuh!
My obeisances (drops trou, turns and politely bows).
Anyway, as I said, I have no experience of the US education system.

Then feel free to STFU and listen.

Now, I've offered all I am going to on this subject, I'm done here, and unsubscribing.
Steve3007
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Steve3007 wrote:If you think that the foundations of QM, such as Newtonian/classical mechanics are "failed hypotheses"...
Namelesss wrote:Once again you have put words in my mouth. I mentioned 'failed theories' in general, and you put absurd specific words in mymouth in another attempt to discredit what I am saying.
No, simply an accurate description of what you said in reply to things that I said. I'll run you through the key points of the conversation that we had:
Steve3007 wrote:If, as you claim, a real philosopher is "abreast of the cutting edge of science", how do you propose he/she achieves that while at the same time avoiding the thoughts of others? Do you think it is possible to properly understand this cutting edge of science without understanding the reasoning which led to it? You said "QM", which presumably means that you think of Quantum Mechanics as being this cutting edge. What leads you to think that? How can you understand QM without understanding the base on which it was built? If you understand that base then you will have learnt about Newton, and therefore about Kepler and therefore about the ancient Greek ideas on planetary dynamics which inspired Kepler and against which he had to eventually rebel.
Namelesss wrote:All irrelevant in the understanding the 'mystical' depths and implications of QM.
I have no need to learn of the 'flat earth' to understand the concept of an oblate spheroid, nor the experiments and data and experience/Knowledge that supports the Earth being 'round'.
Note: the above reply was to my point about the foundations of QM in, for example, the works of Newton and Kepler. Your reply starts with the word "all irrelevant". All what is irrelevant? The only possible conclusion is that everything I said in the post to which you are replying is irrelevant. Yes?

So I went on to challenge this:
Steve3007 wrote:Do you apply this general principle to all subjects (that you don't need to know anything about them to conclude that they are deep and meaningful), or just to Quantum Mechanics?
to which you replied:
Namelesss wrote:As you offered no rational refutation of anything that I said, merely offering snarky sarcastic personal implications ("If you don't see things my way, you are an ignorant doo-doo head!"), you offer nothing worthy of response.
This seems an odd reply, given that I specifically addressed something that you had said.

Getting back up to date:
Namelesss wrote:I mentioned 'failed theories' in general
OK, so despite clearly and explicitly telling me that one doesn't need to learn of the foundation of QM in classical mechanics in order to understand its "'mystical' depths and implications" you're now saying that you didn't mean to do that. You were talking about "failed theories" in general.

Please give me an example, then, of something that you regard as a "failed theory". Do you regard Newton's laws of motion and of universal gravitation, which I mentioned earlier, as such a failed theory? (Note: This is a question, not s statement. I'm not putting words into your mouth.)

I think you'd get less upset and perhaps avoid having to threaten to walk away in a huff at the end of pretty much every post if you looked properly at what is being said.
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Burning ghost
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Burning ghost »

It seems Nameless is only interested in the pragmatics of education rather than elucidating knowledge.

Personally I would prefer to live in a world where knowing how to ride a bike meant you understand the mechanical workings of a bike. I would also extend this up to Cars and Airplanes (the later I do expect pilots are required to know a lot about?) Of course this is far from a practical solution and would likely end up with most of us having to give up our TVs, phones, computers and fridges, to name but a few - I would hope for a future though where we all at least grasp the basic premises of how things work so when they faulter we're able to repair simple problems and at least recognize what the issue is even if we lacked the skill to fix it.

That would be my idea of "practical" education. When it comes down to theory it is equally important to know ho wthe ideas have progressed so as to understand shifts in perspective and perhaps be inspired to address problems yourself rather than simply google the answer and believe yourself to be "smart"?

I can put my foot in both camps here. The thing is teenagers are not so ready to engage in the "mundane" and within the whoel education system we'd have to talk about a complete revolution in "teaching" attitudes to address a more efficient system and society.

I think the best way forward is to make learning a thing to enjoy rather than to feed the attitude of "boredom" associated with school life.
AKA badgerjelly
Steve3007
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Burning ghost wrote:Personally I would prefer to live in a world where knowing how to ride a bike meant you understand the mechanical workings of a bike. I would also extend this up to Cars and Airplanes (the later I do expect pilots are required to know a lot about?)
Yes, me too. But, as you have done, I accept that this is not always practical or necessary in the case of learning to ride a bike or drive a car.

My conversation with Namelesss had got stuck on the particular example of Quantum Mechanics. Namelesss making various claims about that theory while seemingly believing that, in order to make those claims, it's not necessary to know anything much about how and why that theory came about seems to me to be different from the bike/car/plane examples. A better analogy to that would be that if you want to offer an opinion as to which car has the best performance, with the best engine design, then you need to know something about the workings of cars.

Anyway, my wider point was that (in my opinion) it's silly to say that the entire US education system exists to keep people uneducated. As I said, if that were true then there wouldn't have been so many brilliant and creative US physicists, for example, who went through the US public education system. It's seems more likely that it's purely a reflection of some personal experiences in school.
Karpel Tunnel
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Steve3007 wrote: February 21st, 2018, 7:34 am Anyway, my wider point was that (in my opinion) it's silly to say that the entire US education system exists to keep people uneducated. As I said, if that were true then there wouldn't have been so many brilliant and creative US physicists, for example, who went through the US public education system. It's seems more likely that it's purely a reflection of some personal experiences in school.
There's a lot of room in between those positions. The school system involves a lot of elements and agents and I do not think there is a monolithic intention in all of that. But it certainly, in general, stifles creativity, works with outdated pedagogies - the lecture over, say, problem based learning in small groups - and does not tolerate much critical thinking aimed at what any individual pedagogue thinks is the case. It is not good training for adult citizens in a democracy given the way authority, free speech and critical thinking are controlled and skewed. That some brilliant physicists - and certainly other kinds of professionals - came through and could perform doesn't demonstate very much unless someone is arguing that the stifling of intelligence and creativity is completely effective.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve, re: your prior point, you may find this Michio Kaku video about it interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXnAP6YUwZU
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Burning ghost
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Burning ghost »

Greta -

I am guessing that is the one in which he bemoans about the lack of actual US citizens in top positions in US universities? I am not really sure how I feel about that because I don't know all the relative stats, but I am guessing that the universities are more interested in the best minds from around the globe and having a non-patriotic view of education is a good thing.

I have heard more mathematicians and physics complain that the nations best minds were being filtered into economics and finance where they'd be lavished with money, rather than going into theoretical physics or pure mathematics - I personally think it is more a reflection of the US mentality toward "success"? Well, I don't think that without due skepticism, but I at least find it an interesting idea to ponder about what the social climate deems as "useful" and "rewarding".

Given a historical comparison from decades ago with the likes of Feymann and .... that guy whose name I always forget that sounds French ... entropy guy? The information guy ... Irishy-Frenchy name g - Shannon! Claude Shannon! (small peek into my minds machinations there! haha!) ... AAAnyway, given the political climate back then I would expect more US born scientists and after the 90's a gradual increase in freedom of movement for students due to increased ability to communicate and travel PLUS increase in general global wealth and slightly more emphasis on the monetary value of "knowledge" and research.

Either way, I love Gud Ol' Mich!! Hyperspace was one of the first physic based books I read as a teen.
AKA badgerjelly
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