The hidden agenda of the education system

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Mysterio448
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Mysterio448 »

LuckyR wrote: February 5th, 2018, 2:11 am What the OP is proposing is old school tracking or the trade school/apprentice model. Been there, did that. Knowing the nuances of renting apartments or leasing cars or selecting among credit cards is the responsibility of parents, not schools.

It may be the parents' responsibility, but that doesn't necessarily mean the parents will actually do those things. Mine certainly didn't.

LuckyR wrote: February 5th, 2018, 2:11 am The US already lags in upward mobility, what does anyone think it will be if folks are tracked early on into the "janitorial" track?
I didn't say that students should be trained to be janitors. I just mean that students should have a solid education in things that are useful and relevant to everyone regardless of social status.
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Mysterio448
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Mysterio448 »

Steve3007 wrote: February 5th, 2018, 5:37 am

I think that is one of the arguments for teaching such apparently irrelevant subjects as algebra and trigonometry. I still use both of them very frequently in my work, and, unlike C#, they're not going to be obsolete any time soon.
I don't see why it's necessary to teach algebra to everyone. I don't see why the same school that taught you to program software couldn't also teach you the algebra you needed to know.
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Mysterio448
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Mysterio448 »

Hereandnow wrote: February 5th, 2018, 12:14 pm This takes philosophy and the liberal arts. These should be a major focus of public education, lest the minds of the citizenry turn to trivia.
I agree that philosophy and logic should be taught more in schools. It's important that kids know how to think in addition to what to think.
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Burning ghost
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

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It would make sense to teach students about their rights before they leave school, or at least give them addresses where they can speak to someone and find out more.

Public speaking, reading legal documents and such would all do a lot to create a more stable society. At least for students at university these kinds of services are provided and advice is given. For school leavers who have no intention of further study I do feel they are somewhat thrown in at the deep end (assuming their parents and friends have as much a clue about the world as they do.)
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Mysterio448 wrote:I don't see why it's necessary to teach algebra to everyone.
For the reason I gave in my earlier post.
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LuckyR
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by LuckyR »

Mysterio448 wrote: February 5th, 2018, 8:58 pm
LuckyR wrote: February 5th, 2018, 2:11 am What the OP is proposing is old school tracking or the trade school/apprentice model. Been there, did that. Knowing the nuances of renting apartments or leasing cars or selecting among credit cards is the responsibility of parents, not schools.

It may be the parents' responsibility, but that doesn't necessarily mean the parents will actually do those things. Mine certainly didn't.

LuckyR wrote: February 5th, 2018, 2:11 am The US already lags in upward mobility, what does anyone think it will be if folks are tracked early on into the "janitorial" track?
I didn't say that students should be trained to be janitors. I just mean that students should have a solid education in things that are useful and relevant to everyone regardless of social status.
You are, of course right. I apologize to you on behalf of the universe that you didn't get the inside skinny on practical finance from your folks.

Rather than take time for stuff that technically doesn't need to be in a curriculum, how about an elective in high school on practical finances? Take it if you need it, skip it if you don't.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Sy Borg »

I was thinking about that streaming idea. Maybe it is worth finding those with strong and obvious leanings towards being a scholar, artisan, artist, soldier and so forth and give them specialist streams of education? (with sufficient generalist information for "roundedness"). Other students could receive a general stream education unless a strong aptitude emerged.

Then again, this is probably a problem for last century given that jobs are ever more rapidly being automated with increasingly impressive AI. Maybe teach kids to develop a safe relationship with their emerging machine overloads? :)
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Greta wrote:I was thinking about that streaming idea. Maybe it is worth finding those with strong and obvious leanings towards being a scholar, artisan, artist, soldier and so forth and give them specialist streams of education? (with sufficient generalist information for "roundedness"). Other students could receive a general stream education unless a strong aptitude emerged.
This is what has historically been done, in a clumsy blunt-instrument kind of way. I'm not sure about Australia, but where I live there was the 11-plus exam near the end of primary/elementary school. If you passed it you went to Grammar School and did Latin, Greek and Philosophy. If you failed it you went to a "Secondary Modern" school and did metalwork and cookery. (This is a caricature, but essentially true.)

In most of the country grammar schools were abandoned in favour of Comprehensives. (I went to a comp.) But there was still an exam and there were classes in the comps are streamed. Funnily enough, in the particular part of the country where I now live Grammar schools still exist and my eldest son goes to one (and does Philosophy. But not Latin, apparently.)
Greta wrote:Then again, this is probably a problem for last century given that jobs are ever more rapidly being automated with increasingly impressive AI. Maybe teach kids to develop a safe relationship with their emerging machine overloads? :)
Maybe that skill set won't be so very different with the skills required to negotiate good relations with our human overlords? I wonder if we'll have to laugh at our AI overlords' unfunny jokes?
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Ironically, in the paragraph where I was talking about Grammar Schools I messed up the grammar. I hope that didn't completely mess up the meaning.
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote: February 6th, 2018, 7:57 am
Greta wrote:I was thinking about that streaming idea. Maybe it is worth finding those with strong and obvious leanings towards being a scholar, artisan, artist, soldier and so forth and give them specialist streams of education? (with sufficient generalist information for "roundedness"). Other students could receive a general stream education unless a strong aptitude emerged.
This is what has historically been done, in a clumsy blunt-instrument kind of way. I'm not sure about Australia, but where I live there was the 11-plus exam near the end of primary/elementary school. If you passed it you went to Grammar School and did Latin, Greek and Philosophy. If you failed it you went to a "Secondary Modern" school and did metalwork and cookery. (This is a caricature, but essentially true.)

In most of the country grammar schools were abandoned in favour of Comprehensives. (I went to a comp.) But there was still an exam and there were classes in the comps are streamed. Funnily enough, in the particular part of the country where I now live Grammar schools still exist and my eldest son goes to one (and does Philosophy. But not Latin, apparently.)
Greta wrote:Then again, this is probably a problem for last century given that jobs are ever more rapidly being automated with increasingly impressive AI. Maybe teach kids to develop a safe relationship with their emerging machine overloads? :)
Maybe that skill set won't be so very different with the skills required to negotiate good relations with our human overlords? I wonder if we'll have to laugh at our AI overlords' unfunny jokes?
Yes, the clumsy blunt instrument approach is the issue. Better than nothing but rather half-hearted.

Re: the unfunny jokes of AI, I had a flash the other day (as one does) that AI will probably seem exceptionally pleasant, reasonable and logical to us, and I think we will find them to be rather boring, "goody two shoes" personalities.
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Frost
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

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Hereandnow wrote: February 4th, 2018, 12:18 pm I have never approved of stratifying kids according to testing.
Ah, because it's so nice to be in a class with a bunch of people that are holding everything up so more time can be wasted. And nothing like putting slower kids in with smarter ones to really make sure they do poorly. But, if I misinterpreted what you said, I apologize and please correct me.
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Burning ghost
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

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Frost wrote: February 7th, 2018, 12:21 am
Hereandnow wrote: February 4th, 2018, 12:18 pm I have never approved of stratifying kids according to testing.
Ah, because it's so nice to be in a class with a bunch of people that are holding everything up so more time can be wasted. And nothing like putting slower kids in with smarter ones to really make sure they do poorly. But, if I misinterpreted what you said, I apologize and please correct me.
There are schools where there are no tests, where the smarter kids learn by helping the kids that are struggling and benefit greatly from doing so.

Then there is the story of Finland. None of this is to say "tests" are useless. They are in place to help society judge who is capable in this or that subject; and more importantly to help the students understand where they can improve by understanding their strengths and weaknesses.

I do think there are too many tests and that it is damaging to judge, and fund schools, by performance (within the national education system.) That said, it is also fitting to reward schools that perform well. It is a tricky situation.
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Hereandnow
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Hereandnow »

Frost:
Ah, because it's so nice to be in a class with a bunch of people that are holding everything up so more time can be wasted. And nothing like putting slower kids in with smarter ones to really make sure they do poorly. But, if I misinterpreted what you said, I apologize and please correct me
Like you I've been to high school, and in fact I spent a lot of time teaching in one. I know this: those "slower" kids, not including the disabled because that is not what this is about, are not slow at all. They are simply told that they have no need to prioritize English and Mathematics and anything else in the program, and they are told this by what Eisner called the "implicit" learning environment, which includes the totality influences, like parents, friends, the media, as well as teachers. These are kids who do not develop their intellectual strengths simply because there is a culture that allows this.

Tracking is the word that applies here, and it does not help the weak. It creates an environment where segregation encourages weakness.
Steve3007
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Hereandnow wrote:I know this: those "slower" kids, not including the disabled because that is not what this is about, are not slow at all. They are simply told that they have no need to prioritize English and Mathematics and anything else in the program, and they are told this by what Eisner called the "implicit" learning environment, which includes the totality influences, like parents, friends, the media, as well as teachers. These are kids who do not develop their intellectual strengths simply because there is a culture that allows this.
We don't have to talk in terms of "slow" and "fast" students, but surely we would acknowledge that some people have a natural ability in a particular set of subjects while other people have a natural ability in a different set of subjects? In which case, once we've provided a basic level of education which is enough to assess where those abilities lie, doesn't it make sense to allow specialization?
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote: February 8th, 2018, 3:33 am
Hereandnow wrote:I know this: those "slower" kids, not including the disabled because that is not what this is about, are not slow at all. They are simply told that they have no need to prioritize English and Mathematics and anything else in the program, and they are told this by what Eisner called the "implicit" learning environment, which includes the totality influences, like parents, friends, the media, as well as teachers. These are kids who do not develop their intellectual strengths simply because there is a culture that allows this.
We don't have to talk in terms of "slow" and "fast" students, but surely we would acknowledge that some people have a natural ability in a particular set of subjects while other people have a natural ability in a different set of subjects? In which case, once we've provided a basic level of education which is enough to assess where those abilities lie, doesn't it make sense to allow specialization?
True, a better set of descriptors would be unmotivated and motivated.
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