The hidden agenda of the education system

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Hereandnow
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Hereandnow »

Steve3007:
We don't have to talk in terms of "slow" and "fast" students, but surely we would acknowledge that some people have a natural ability in a particular set of subjects while other people have a natural ability in a different set of subjects? In which case, once we've provided a basic level of education which is enough to assess where those abilities lie, doesn't it make sense to allow specialization?
Then the question is, to what extent does this kind of accommodation carry? If a student is tracked, it is preconception of her abilities and place int he world that is imposed prior to the fact, and this is structural predetermination. Many of the kids that are in the highest tracks are particularly gifted. They just have parents that motivate and insist. There are those that have a genuine deficit, and typically they are treated well in any social context. But tracking compounds this as it, among other things, physically removes them from the mainstream.

As to difference, certainly these can be acknowledged outside of the core curriculum.
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

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...are NOT particularly gifted.
I am aware that assuming what I write does not need proofreading is a fault. Oh well.
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Namelesss »

Mysterio448 wrote: February 4th, 2018, 12:44 am I pondered why the educational system is set up this way...
For your reading pleasure;


The Educational System Was Designed to Keep Us Uneducated and Docile
The Memory Hole
Sep. 09, 2009

http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=27316


It's no secret that the US educational system doesn't do a very good job. Like clockwork, studies show that America's schoolkids lag behind their peers in pretty much every industrialized nation. We hear shocking statistics about the percentage of high-school seniors who can't find the US on an unmarked map of the world or who don't know who Abraham Lincoln was. Fingers are pointed at various aspects of the schooling system—overcrowded classrooms, lack of funding, teachers who can't pass competency exams in their fields, etc. But these are just secondary problems. Even if they were cleared up, schools would still suck. Why? Because they were designed to.

How can I make such a bold statement? How do I know why America's public school system was designed the way it was (age-segregated, six to eight 50-minute classes in a row announced by Pavlovian bells, emphasis on rote memorization, lorded over by unquestionable authority figures, etc.)? Because the men who designed, funded, and implemented America's formal educational system in the late 1800s and early 1900s wrote about what they were doing.

Almost all of these books, articles, and reports are out of print and hard to obtain. Luckily for us, John Taylor Gatto tracked them down. Gatto was voted the New York City Teacher of the Year three times and the New York State Teacher of the Year in 1991. But he became disillusioned with schools—the way they enforce conformity, the way they kill the natural creativity, inquisitiveness, and love of learning that every little child has at the beginning. So he began to dig into terra incognita, the roots of America's educational system.

In 1888, the Senate Committee on Education was getting jittery about the localized, non-standardized, non-mandatory form of education that was actually teaching children to read at advanced levels, to comprehend history, and, egads, to think for themselves. The committee's report stated, "We believe that education is one of the principal causes of discontent of late years manifesting itself among the laboring classes."

By the turn of the century, America's new educrats were pushing a new form of schooling with a new mission (and it wasn't to teach). The famous philosopher and educator John Dewey wrote in 1897:

Every teacher should realize he is a social servant set apart for the maintenance of the proper social order and the securing of the right social growth.

In his 1905 dissertation for Columbia Teachers College, Elwood Cubberly—the future Dean of Education at Stanford—wrote that schools should be factories "in which raw products, children, are to be shaped and formed into finished products...manufactured like nails, and the specifications for manufacturing will come from government and industry."

The next year, the Rockefeller Education Board—which funded the creation of numerous public schools—issued a statement which read in part:

In our dreams...people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions [intellectual and character education] fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, educators, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is very simple...we will organize children...and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way.

At the same time, William Torrey Harris, US Commissioner of Education from 1889 to 1906, wrote:

Ninety-nine [students] out of a hundred are automata, careful to walk in prescribed paths, careful to follow the prescribed custom. This is not an accident but the result of substantial education, which, scientifically defined, is the subsumption of the individual.

In that same book, The Philosophy of Education, Harris also revealed:

The great purpose of school can be realized better in dark, airless, ugly places.... It is to master the physical self, to transcend the beauty of nature. School should develop the power to withdraw from the external world.

Several years later, President Woodrow Wilson would echo these sentiments in a speech to businessmen:

We want one class to have a liberal education. We want another class, a very much larger class of necessity, to forego the privilege of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks.

Writes Gatto: "Another major architect of standardized testing, H.H. Goddard, said in his book Human Efficiency (1920) that government schooling was about 'the perfect organization of the hive.'"

While President of Harvard from 1933 to 1953, James Bryant Conant wrote that the change to a forced, rigid, potential-destroying educational system had been demanded by "certain industrialists and the innovative who were altering the nature of the industrial process."

In other words, the captains of industry and government explicitly wanted an educational system that would maintain social order by teaching us just enough to get by but not enough so that we could think for ourselves, question the sociopolitical order, or communicate articulately. We were to become good worker-drones, with a razor-thin slice of the population—mainly the children of the captains of industry and government—to rise to the level where they could continue running things.

This was the openly admitted blueprint for the public schooling system, a blueprint which remains unchanged to this day. Although the true reasons behind it aren't often publicly expressed, they're apparently still known within education circles. Clinical psychologist Bruce E. Levine wrote in 2001:

I once consulted with a teacher of an extremely bright eight-year-old boy labeled with oppositional defiant disorder. I suggested that perhaps the boy didn't have a disease, but was just bored. His teacher, a pleasant woman, agreed with me. However, she added, "They told us at the state conference that our job is to get them ready for the work world…that the children have to get used to not being stimulated all the time or they will lose their jobs in the real world."


John Taylor Gatto's book, The Underground History of American Education: An Intimate Investigation into the Problem of Modern Schooling (New York: Oxford Village Press, 2001), is the source for all of the above historical quotes. It is a profoundly important, unnerving book, which I recommend most highly. You can order it from Gatto's Website, which now contains the entire book online for free.

The final quote above is from page 74 of Bruce E. Levine's excellent book Commonsense Rebellion: Debunking Psychiatry, Confronting Society (New York: Continuum Publishing Group, 2001).
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Burning ghost
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

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The Educational System Was Designed to Keep Us Uneducated and Docile
The Memory Hole
Sep. 09, 2009

Sounds like the dumbest proposition I've ever heard!

Skip to last part of talk to see what I mean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vpqilhW9uI
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Namelesss »

Burning ghost wrote: February 11th, 2018, 10:05 pm The Educational System Was Designed to Keep Us Uneducated and Docile
The Memory Hole
Sep. 09, 2009

Sounds like the dumbest proposition I've ever heard!

Skip to last part of talk to see what I mean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vpqilhW9uI
I didn't write it, nor do I condone. All I did was to offer something that I had that some might find interesting.
Due to the balance of nature, anything that can be seen as dumb, can also be seen as intelligent/interesting.
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Nameless:

One of the things that has changed in the western world, including the US, since the end of the 19th Century, is the decline of heavy industry and the big reduction of the need for large numbers of unskilled workers. Nowadays (at least where I live) government ministers talk about such things as the need to "move up the food chain" by increasing the level of academic education for larger numbers of people. Hence the push for larger numbers of students at Universities and the reason why (where I live) university education can no longer be funded by the taxpayer.

So I suppose governments, when deciding on education policy, have always considered what skills and knowledge they think society needs its members to hold, and not what those members would like to learn. Presumably allowing people to learn whatever they feel like learning is regarded as a luxury that society as a whole can't afford. For example, in days gone by it was seriously considered dangerous to educate women lest they should stop being entirely dependent on men for their financial security, as it still is in some modern cultures. Same principle as for the manual workers that you speak of in your post.

In the US now there seems to be a big push, which comes from the top of government, to try to return to this world of heavy industry, manual labour and the rejection of knowledge.
Namless wrote:We hear shocking statistics about the percentage of high-school seniors who can't find the US on an unmarked map of the world or who don't know who Abraham Lincoln was.
The current US president didn't know who Abraham Lincoln was ("Great president. Most people don’t even know he was a Republican. Right? Does anyone know? A lot of people don’t know that." Since most Americans do know this, what Trump was saying here was that he personally didn't know it. He frequently uses this device of referring to people in general when he actually means himself, as in the quote about healthcare below.)

The current US president makes it clear that he knows nothing about how the country of which he is president works, and that is regarded by him and his supporters as an important virtue. He doesn't know how the healthcare system that he wants to change works ("nobody knew health care could be so complicated"). He doesn't know how the stock market works (Having referred to stock market rises under Obama as a "big ugly bubble", and then touted the continuation of those rises under his leadership as suddenly being a good thing that is all down to him, he then referred to the recent drop in the DJIA as follows: "In the 'old days,' when good news was reported, the Stock Market would go up. Today, when good news is reported, the Stock Market goes down. Big mistake."). He didn't know that he is president of the U.S. Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. etc.

People who know stuff are not to be trusted. They're slippery and duplicitous. They don't talk straight. That appears to be a theme that has been exploited by presidents at least since Reagan, who used the folksy, unsophisticated shtick to great effect. Trump seems to be the natural culmination of that attitude. This then allows him to spin the fantasies of bringing back loads of jobs in "beautiful clean coal", that climate change is a hoax and that he is the people's president, fighting on their behalf against all those so-called experts. Ignorance is useful now as it was in the past.
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Namelesss »

Steve3007 wrote: February 12th, 2018, 3:58 am Nameless:

One of the things that has changed in the western world...
From what I have seen, education = propaganda/brainwashing, as in 're-education camps'.
In school, people are taught what to think, rather than how to think.
Same with philosophy classes;they teach the thoughts of others, not how to creatively synthesize one's own critical examination.
An ignorant (and frightened; see the news and people too ignorant to recognize 'entertainment', or deliberate attempts to scare you. Machiavelli says that a frightened populace is easy to manipulate.

School teaches how to hold your urine, how to have few breaks, how to stuff down 'lunch' in some toxic time period (not to mention the food), how to follow instructions, how to get things done on time...
It makes you into a workplace drone, with no ability for original thought. That would be dangerous to the powers that be.
The fancy colleges merely insert your ignorant self into the money stream. Look at Trump.
That seems to be the vast majority of the 'education system' that I have observed, and the spew that exits from those hallowed halls!
That's my take.
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Nameless wrote:From what I have seen, education = propaganda/brainwashing, as in 're-education camps'.
If you look at what happens/happened in actual "re-education camps", for example under the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, then of course what you've said here is an absurd exaggeration. In my experience school and college education has gradually moved away from what might be described as propaganda and rote learning towards the encouragement of free thought, to the extent that the main criticisms of the education system nowadays come from the opposite direction; from the people who think it should return to rote learning.
In school, people are taught what to think, rather than how to think.
Same with philosophy classes;they teach the thoughts of others, not how to creatively synthesize one's own critical examination.
I used to think somewhat like this when I was a high school student doing lessons in such subjects as English Literature and Philosophy. So when I wrote essays I tended to ignore the set texts and write my own personal theories. I remember one particular English essay on which the teacher wrote the comment "barely a reference to the text throughout" and gave a very low mark.

I now realise that the teacher was right to give a low mark and I was actually just too lazy to properly read the text. The arrogance of youth! Yes, it is important to learn to think, but in doing so it is also important to learn what other people in the past have had to say on any given subject, if only so you don't re-invent the wheel.
School teaches how to hold your urine, how to have few breaks, ...
A very important skill when you are in a situation with limited public toilet facilities.
...how to stuff down 'lunch' in some toxic time period (not to mention the food), how to follow instructions, how to get things done on time...
It makes you into a workplace drone, with no ability for original thought. That would be dangerous to the powers that be.
What original thoughts do you think I would have had but didn't have as a result of these things which you describe? I don't see how learning to retain urine, eat unpleasant food and learning what people in the past have said about various subjects, in themselves, stop me from having original thoughts. How does that work?
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

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Also, I remember reading about attempts made to introduce mathematical logic at high school level. It fell flat on its face.

No one learns real mathematics at high school. They are just given the tools of arithmetic, algebra and calculus.
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Namelesss »

Steve3007 wrote: February 12th, 2018, 6:57 am
Nameless wrote:From what I have seen, education = propaganda/brainwashing, as in 're-education camps'.
If you look at what happens/happened in actual "re-education camps", for example under the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, then of course what you've said here is an absurd exaggeration.

Considering that you grabbed an extreme example, it still illustrates that we engaged in the same thing; hyperbole.
Nevertheless, the point that I was making still holds.
Education is programming at best, manipulation is common, dissemination of propaganda, also common.
In my experience school and college education has gradually moved away from what might be described as propaganda and rote learning towards the encouragement of free thought, to the extent that the main criticisms of the education system nowadays come from the opposite direction; from the people who think it should return to rote learning.
Although having nothing to do with the formal 'education' system for over a decade, I can certainly observe the 'pudding' of it's spew.
The common intellect brought us (and supports) Trump. Need I offer more?
In school, people are taught what to think, rather than how to think.
Same with philosophy classes; they teach the thoughts of others, not how to creatively synthesize one's own critical examination.
I used to think somewhat like this when I was a high school student doing lessons in such subjects as English Literature and Philosophy. So when I wrote essays I tended to ignore the set texts and write my own personal theories. I remember one particular English essay on which the teacher wrote the comment "barely a reference to the text throughout" and gave a very low mark.
As I said, thinking for yourself is discouraged.
Einstein was reprimanded for coming up with the answers more quickly and efficiently then the moronic lessons being programmed into the students.
He never did sell his Soul.
I now realise that the teacher was right to give a low mark and I was actually just too lazy to properly read the text.

Ah, now you are 'in line'. Good work. Here's an 'A'.
How much for the Soul?
The arrogance of youth! Yes, it is important to learn to think, but in doing so it is also important to learn what other people in the past have had to say on any given subject, if only so you don't re-invent the wheel.
Funny thing about technology, often 'the wheel' IS reinvented, better, more efficient... by whom?
Einstein speaks about 'beginner's mind', the empty cup capable of independent thought.
Not some cup jammed full with the irrelevant detritus drifting down from history.
'Philosophology' is the learning of the thoughts of others;

...philosophers and not "philosophologists", a term coined by Robert Pirsig ("Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", "Lila") to denote people who study other people's philosophy but cannot do philosophy themselves. He also says that most people who consider themselves philosophers are actually philosophologists. The difference between a philosopher and a philosophologist is like the difference between an art and aesthetics; one does and the other studies what the other does and theorizes about it.
School teaches how to hold your urine, how to have few breaks, ...
A very important skill when you are in a situation with limited public toilet facilities.
You had to go to school to learn to control your bodily functions?
That's the heights of public education? Drone production?
No parents?
Seems with robots replacing the drones, we have run 'schooling' to the edge of the cliff.
Drastic changes will be needed.
What original thoughts do you think I would have had but didn't have as a result of these things which you describe?
How can I possibly answer that?
I can speak of my own thoughts, I Know them, this Perspective, anyway.
If your cup is filled with orange soda, and you ask me what else, all brand new, would be in it if not for the orange.
Well, you would Know for yourself, perhaps, were you to empty it and see for yourself.
I don't see how learning to retain urine, eat unpleasant food and learning what people in the past have said about various subjects, in themselves, stop me from having original thoughts. How does that work?
There's the full cup analogy. That still holds water! *__-
Also, imbibing the thoughts of others does not teach one the essential art of original critical examination, critical thought!
One does need data to synthesize; a real philosopher is abreast of the cutting edge of science, QM. Any and all means of Knowing are features of the philosopher (a rapidly dying breed).
Most of what one can imbibe from Aristotle, for instance, is obsolete.
Talk about reinventing the wheel once culture has driven the old wheel bone deep!

One can never ride the crest of the wave, or even be ahead of it, sweeping up after the party.
An interesting line from a movie comes to mind (paraphrased);

"We told the kiddies all sorts of fanciful tales about life.
Thus, they were able to distinguish between the 'truth' and 'fiction/lies' (people lying to them) by the time they were five!"

Of course I am speaking in the extreme. Perhaps it is possible for people to learn the techniques of critical thought in school.
Techniques, necessary, but still drone-like.
The lone philosopher comes up with an unheard-of notion, and the do-bots swarm to make it so.
Without the already established program to inspire (from someone who can find original thought, who has 'beginner's mind'), they sit and look at porn all day, or get in trouble.
Seems to be/have been a 'working system', all chiefs and no braves...
But we are at the end of that system, it's natural end.
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Nameless,

If, as you claim, a real philosopher is "abreast of the cutting edge of science", how do you propose he/she achieves that while at the same time avoiding the thoughts of others? Do you think it is possible to properly understand this cutting edge of science without understanding the reasoning which led to it? You said "QM", which presumably means that you think of Quantum Mechanics as being this cutting edge. What leads you to think that? How can you understand QM without understanding the base on which it was built? If you understand that base then you will have learnt about Newton, and therefore about Kepler and therefore about the ancient Greek ideas on planetary dynamics which inspired Kepler and against which he had to eventually rebel.

You also mentioned Einstein. He didn't just pluck Special Relativity out of the air. It was created by considerations of the thoughts and experiments of others. Specifically: a consideration of the the laws of electromagnetism described by Maxwell's equations. Einstein had issues with the particular education he personally had been receiving, but obviously he didn't have a problem with learning from the work of others, as you seem to have.
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Steve3007 »

Namelesss wrote:Although having nothing to do with the formal 'education' system for over a decade, I can certainly observe the 'pudding' of it's spew.
The common intellect brought us (and supports) Trump. Need I offer more?
If you're not a fan of Trump, perhaps you could console yourself with the fact that support for Trump tends to be inversely correlated with educational attainment? i.e. the further people have progressed through the US educational systems the less likely they are to support him. So if you don't like him, wouldn't that be a reason for you to give three cheers for American education?
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

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Steve3007 wrote: February 13th, 2018, 3:17 am Nameless,

If, as you claim, a real philosopher is "abreast of the cutting edge of science", how do you propose he/she achieves that while at the same time avoiding the thoughts of others?

I did mention about gathering data from which to synthesize one's own 'tentative conclusions/theories'.
Obviously the data will include testing and experimentation in the context of the people performing them.
Lets get real, here.
You said "QM", which presumably means that you think of Quantum Mechanics as being this cutting edge. What leads you to think that?

QM is finding Truths about the deepest aspects of Reality.
QM has discovered Consciousness when all the other sciences have, historically, avoided it as it cannot be quantized/measured, put in flasks...
It is the findings of QM that must inform all other sciences if they are to remain relevant, and not spiral into Rubic's Cubes of mental masturbation and twine.
How can you understand QM without understanding the base on which it was built?

"Quantum mechanics comes on as so off the wall that only a mystical state of mind can even begin to probe it's mysteries!" - Richard Feynman and Chuangtse

There are 'lab assistants/technicians' who can spend their lives crunching numbers and looking to 'prove' this and that, but they will never understand beyond those imaginary numbers.
Perhaps they will understand a few of the 'foundational' numbers and concepts. Maybe a bit.
But they haven't the 'mystical state of mind', the artistic genius to understand the greater Reality revealed.
Laotse and Chuangtse mystically/intuitively Knew what QM is finding, millennia ago. They laugh at the Einsteins who spend their lives trying to prove what is already Known.
If you understand that base then you will have learnt about Newton, and therefore about Kepler and therefore about the ancient Greek ideas on planetary dynamics which inspired Kepler and against which he had to eventually rebel.
All irrelevant in the understanding the 'mystical' depths and implications of QM.
I have no need to learn of the 'flat earth' to understand the concept of an oblate spheroid, nor the experiments and data and experience/Knowledge that supports the Earth being 'round'.
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

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Steve3007 wrote:How can you understand QM without understanding the base on which it was built? If you understand that base then you will have learnt about Newton, and therefore about Kepler and therefore about the ancient Greek ideas on planetary dynamics which inspired Kepler and against which he had to eventually rebel.
Namelesss wrote:All irrelevant in the understanding the 'mystical' depths and implications of QM.
Do you apply this general principle to all subjects (that you don't need to know anything about them to conclude that they are deep and meaningful), or just to Quantum Mechanics? What was it about QM specifically that led you to this conclusion? Not actually learning anything about it, it seems. Did you reach that conclusion just by reading general comments by people like Richard Feynman that you quoted above?

If you want to learn something more than just vague meaningless statements about "mystical states of mind", and are genuinely interested in what Richard Feynman has to say, the classic "Feynman Lectures on Physics" are good, even though they're pretty old now. They were responsible for making the consideration of the twin-slit experiment (comparing waves, particles and electrons) the standard example that is used to illustrate the counter-intuitiveness of QM.
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Re: The hidden agenda of the education system

Post by Namelesss »

Steve3007 wrote: February 18th, 2018, 6:44 am Do you apply this general principle to all subjects (that you don't need to know anything about them to conclude that they are deep and meaningful), or just to Quantum Mechanics?
As you offered no rational refutation of anything that I said, merely offering snarky sarcastic personal implications ("If you don't see things my way, you are an ignorant doo-doo head!"), you offer nothing worthy of response.

And even so;

The great Acarya Maitreya says in his Saptadasa-bhumi-sastra-yogacarya:

"Before accepting a challenge for a debate, one should consider whether his opponent is a person worthy of carrying on debate through the process of proposition (siddhanta), reason (hetu), example (udaharana), etc. He should, before proceeding there, consider whether the debate will exercise any good influence on his opponent, the umpire, and the audience. But first of all, he should consider whether a debate - even won - would not bring him more harm than benefit."

(Of course, he doesn't understand anything, either. *__- )

Done.
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September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021