Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

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Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by TeckelDackel »

Here is a link to a extremely interesting set of four controversial statements of fact that famed Harvard academic, Professor Steve Pinker recently made during a televised interview at Harvard. It is only an 8 -minute video and I believe it is very well worth watching for anyone interested in the rise of political Correctness in the West, especially, in the United States, and its consequences...

Http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cn4cnpv6Y
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by TeckelDackel »

I must apologize. The link above does not work. If , alternatively, you google the terms " steven pinker spiked us video" and hit enter, your computer should bring up a video called "Steven Pinker Political Correctness might be Red - Pilling America", this is the explosive 8 -minute video I was referring to above.
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by Spectrum »

Is this the same video?
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by Spectrum »

Here is a relevant counter from Pat Condell in relation to the Political Correctness re Islam as one point mentioned by Pinker.

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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by Spectrum »

Another relevant video to the OP.

A Word To Left-Wing Students;
(restricting free speech, not studying philosophy and not listening to different opinions)
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

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And if someone were to have the foulest ideas imaginable, should these be brought to light under the rubric of free speech? One can easily say yes, it's a free country and we believe in free speech, but in South Korea there are laws against encouraging pro-north rhetoric, and today nazi symbols are banned in Germany, and for good reason.

Perhaps, in a society where ugly speech is not legally hindered, the shout down precisely what is called for in a place where fascist lunatics have a voice.

Who am I to decide who should and shouldn't be heard? I am not a right wing, conspiracy mongering, racist, vulgarian, that's who.
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

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Hereandnow wrote: March 1st, 2018, 12:40 am And if someone were to have the foulest ideas imaginable, should these be brought to light under the rubric of free speech? One can easily say yes, it's a free country and we believe in free speech, but in South Korea there are laws against encouraging pro-north rhetoric, and today nazi symbols are banned in Germany, and for good reason.

Perhaps, in a society where ugly speech is not legally hindered, the shout down precisely what is called for in a place where fascist lunatics have a voice.

Who am I to decide who should and shouldn't be heard? I am not a right wing, conspiracy mongering, racist, vulgarian, that's who.
Sorry to tell you this "Here and Now" but the content and vitriolic polemical tone of your comments in post above just proved Pinker's point.
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by TeckelDackel »

Spectrum wrote: February 28th, 2018, 11:55 pm Is this the same video?
[/quote

Yes, that's it . I think Pinker showed a lot of courage in saying what he did ?
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by Spectrum »

There are pros and cons to the concept of Free Speech.
I believe the pros of Free Speech outweigh its cons, re prevention of tyranny.

However there should be a system [to be developed and continually improved] in place to ensure the permission given for free speech is not taken to the extreme.
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by Fooloso4 »

The title of the thread points to a contributory problem, a compulsive need to polarize opinions. He is not “lambasting” anyone. He is criticizing both the alt-right and political correctness. The problem is that political correctness has not allowed for, in his words, “inoculation” against false conclusions drawn by the alt-right from certain truths that neither side knows how to handle. His point is that the attempt to censor these truths has prevented an open discussion of them that would allow reasonable conclusions to be drawn from them. Instead the alt-right is led to, again in his words, “repellent”, “extreme”, “unwarranted”, and “indefensible” conclusions. The counterarguments to these conclusions are suppressed because the subject itself is considered politically incorrect.
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by Alias »

Hereandnow wrote: March 1st, 2018, 12:40 am And if someone were to have the foulest ideas imaginable, should these be brought to light under the rubric of free speech?
Brought to light, yes. Provided with a public platform, not necessarily.
How can you show the wrongness, or the stupidity of an idea, without examining it? All ideas must be heard and should be discussed, if only to disprove them.
BUT
There is no such thing as a free country, or free speech. Everything has limits and a cost.
When a society sets its limits on individual freedom (makes laws) its governing body has to estimate and balance the cost of all the liberties it allows and disallows. No legislature ever gets that balance just right; they're all jugglers and they all drop a few balls.
There is also a when, where and how to be considered in each case. Nobody gets them all right all the time.
One can easily say yes, it's a free country and we believe in free speech, but in South Korea there are laws against encouraging pro-north rhetoric, and today nazi symbols are banned in Germany, and for good reason.
They have their reasons. Whether those reasons are good is a matter of opinion.
Perhaps, in a society where ugly speech is not legally hindered, the shout down precisely what is called for in a place where fascist lunatics have a voice.
Be more afraid of silent fascist lunatics. If they yell, at least you hear them coming.
If you don't listen to what people think, everything they do will take you by surprise.
The biggest danger of legal hindrance to expression is that outlaws go underground, where they're a lot harder to fight. Suppressed ideas and feelings tend to fester; problems, unsolved and buried, always erupt in crises. The arguments and confrontations over any public issue need to take place out in the open; need to be analyzed fairly, need to be made available for every citizen to evaluate and make an informed decision.

That doesn't mean anyone is at liberty to say anything, anywhere.
We all have the right to decide the rules of our own domain. If something offends you, ban it from your house. You have the right to ask people to take off their shoes when they come in - equally, you can ask visitors to leave their racism, dirty jokes, religious cant, sales pitch or political rhetoric outside your door.
If you have a business, you have a right to devise a code of conduct, just as you can institute a safety code. You can ban hate speech on your premises, just as you can ban smoking, for the the well-being of your employees and clients.
If you're responsible for children in any capacity, you are charged with their protection from harm, both physical and psychological. That makes it not only your right, but your duty, to make decisions regarding what kind of ideas, what kind of opinions and influences they'll be exposed to, at what age.
That's not an easy assignment, and is usually not done without consultation and debate.
If you're taking care of any disenfranchised or incapacitated population, such as a hospital, prison or other institution, you are just as responsible for the emotional environment of those residents as for the physical one. You have to use judgment in deciding what outside influences are beneficial and what might be harmful.
If you're officiating in an organization, you have to abide by the principles mandate of its constitution. You have uphold its mandate, and sometimes that includes judgment of member's demeanour, or the language of an in-house organ or the content of advertising material.
If you are in charge of a communications medium, you have to balance the requirements of audience, sponsors, correspondents and staff against the law of the land, the terms of your license, regulatory agencies and your own civic duty. The language and tone of a news outlet will reflect that juggling act, whether it's successful or not.

There are always limits to freedom. By what guiding principle they're set, and by whom enforced, is a subject of unending contention.
Who am I to decide who should and shouldn't be heard?
That depends on your purview.
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by Hereandnow »

Alias
Brought to light, yes. Provided with a public platform, not necessarily.
How can you show the wrongness, or the stupidity of an idea, without examining it? All ideas must be heard and should be discussed, if only to disprove them.
BUT
There is no such thing as a free country, or free speech. Everything has limits and a cost.
When a society sets its limits on individual freedom (makes laws) its governing body has to estimate and balance the cost of all the liberties it allows and disallows. No legislature ever gets that balance just right; they're all jugglers and they all drop a few balls.
There is also a when, where and how to be considered in each case. Nobody gets them all right all the time.
This matter goes to what is pretty much already out there. I don't think we need any more tutorials on nazism, for example, or the Ku Klu Klan. And free speech is certainly at issue, isn't it? That is pretty much what this is about.
hey have their reasons. Whether those reasons are good is a matter of opinion.
As you say, no such thing as free speech, but it being a good idea or not in South Korea at this time is not really up for debate.
Be more afraid of silent fascist lunatics. If they yell, at least you hear them coming.
If you don't listen to what people think, everything they do will take you by surprise.
The biggest danger of legal hindrance to expression is that outlaws go underground, where they're a lot harder to fight. Suppressed ideas and feelings tend to fester; problems, unsolved and buried, always erupt in crises. The arguments and confrontations over any public issue need to take place out in the open; need to be analyzed fairly, need to be made available for every citizen to evaluate and make an informed decision.
The loud ones are those with big mouths, have an education, and are good at public speech: these guys are terrifying. They put barroom blather into print and commit the most egregious sophistry, making the weak argument seem the stronger. People are pawns in their games; but you're right, once a preestablished mentality finds words and justification it congregates with its own kind and they huddle into masses and vote. I am all for informed decisions, but these people are not being informed, they are being propagandized. The difference? Sophistry.
That doesn't mean anyone is at liberty to say anything, anywhere.
We all have the right to decide the rules of our own domain. If something offends you, ban it from your house. You have the right to ask people to take off their shoes when they come in - equally, you can ask visitors to leave their racism, dirty jokes, religious cant, sales pitch or political rhetoric outside your door.
If you have a business, you have a right to devise a code of conduct, just as you can institute a safety code. You can ban hate speech on your premises, just as you can ban smoking, for the the well-being of your employees and clients.
If you're responsible for children in any capacity, you are charged with their protection from harm, both physical and psychological. That makes it not only your right, but your duty, to make decisions regarding what kind of ideas, what kind of opinions and influences they'll be exposed to, at what age.
That's not an easy assignment, and is usually not done without consultation and debate.
If you're taking care of any disenfranchised or incapacitated population, such as a hospital, prison or other institution, you are just as responsible for the emotional environment of those residents as for the physical one. You have to use judgment in deciding what outside influences are beneficial and what might be harmful.
If you're officiating in an organization, you have to abide by the principles mandate of its constitution. You have uphold its mandate, and sometimes that includes judgment of member's demeanour, or the language of an in-house organ or the content of advertising material.
If you are in charge of a communications medium, you have to balance the requirements of audience, sponsors, correspondents and staff against the law of the land, the terms of your license, regulatory agencies and your own civic duty. The language and tone of a news outlet will reflect that juggling act, whether it's successful or not.

There are always limits to freedom. By what guiding principle they're set, and by whom enforced, is a subject of unending contention.
Right, and it is not just about handling affairs. It's about the free play of ideas that give us our culture, our comedians and professional writers and the way we can think and grow as creative thinking people: these are along a more nuanced line that defines the tipping point. But there is behind this a stain of Skinner's Beyond Freedom and Diginity: we live in an environment that is conditioned, always, already. We have to be careful because it is not just ideas, it is attitude, the moral geist of our time; it is not that there some magic in free speech as such. Watch out for those loonies! They grow in number and rhetoric and what was once insane becomes the new norm.
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by Hereandnow »

I said "stain" and meant "strain", but then, I like the former better.
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by Eduk »

What curtailment of free speech are people finding themselves effected by exactly? Can anyone give me a personal example?
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Re: Steve Pinker Lambasts American Left for Political Correctness

Post by Alias »

Hereandnow wrote: March 1st, 2018, 2:11 pm This matter goes to what is pretty much already out there. I don't think we need any more tutorials on nazism, for example, or the Ku Klu Klan.
But I do. Because so much of what's "out there" is inaccurate, misconceived, twisted and garbled. It will be even more garbled by the time it reaches the next generation and the one after. If it can't be discussed, it will never be clarified or put into perspective - or disarmed. And since both are still active, they certainly deserve the chance to be discredited.
And free speech is certainly at issue, isn't it? That is pretty much what this is about.
Yes, that's always an issue. There will never be complete agreement on it, but there may be reasonable compromises for short periods.
As you say, no such thing as free speech, but it being a good idea or not in South Korea at this time is not really up for debate.
Debate in Korea, I hope you mean. Because I don't consider their speech my business.
The loud ones are those with big mouths, have an education, and are good at public speech:
Actually, I've heard some incredibly ignorant and terrible public speakers. (A POTUS comes all unbidden to mind)
They put barroom blather into print and commit the most egregious sophistry, making the weak argument seem the stronger. People are pawns in their games; but you're right, once a preestablished mentality finds words and justification it congregates with its own kind and they huddle into masses and vote. I am all for informed decisions, but these people are not being informed, they are being propagandized. The difference? Sophistry.
Where did I say all free speech is supposed to come from one side? If we silence them and they come to power, they will have the ready-made legal apparatus to silence us. It's tantamount to Mexico building The Wall.
The propaganda of any faction can only be neutralized by critical examination of its claims. That's never going to happen in secret.
Right, and it is not just about handling affairs.
That's all governing is. That's all the power governing bodies have - each over its own jurisdiction.
It's about the free play of ideas that give us our culture,
You can't say "free play of ideas" in the same breath with "Shut them up".
Fix inequality and public communication media, and the bad ideas will die of ridicule.
.... But there is behind this a stain of Skinner's Beyond Freedom and Diginity:
.....stain....? I'm no Skinner fan, but: How so?
we live in an environment that is conditioned, always, already. We have to be careful because it is not just ideas, it is attitude, the moral geist of our time; it is not that there some magic in free speech as such. Watch out for those loonies! They grow in number and rhetoric and what was once insane becomes the new norm.
Fix health care and education: stop producing so many loonies.
All humans are insane to some degree. The degree is determined by the the health of one's social infrastructure.

Instead of suppressing the symptoms, try treating the illness.
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