The logic of making choices

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Syamsu
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The logic of making choices

Post by Syamsu »

Suppose an object has alternative futures A and B, and A is made the present, meaning A is chosen. Then there is the question, what was it that made the choice turn out A? The answer to this question is a choice between X and Y, where either answer X or Y is equally valid.

It is because the rules of subjectivity apply to agency of choices. The same reason that it is equally valid to say a painting is beautiful or ugly, is why it is equally valid to say X caused the choice to turn out A, as it is to say Y caused the choice to turn out A.

To say a painting is beautiful identifies a love for the way the painting looks, as being agency of choices, of the person saying it is beautiful. The opinion that the painting is beautiful was formed by spontaneous expression of emotion with free will, where at first the possibility of both words ugly and beautiful were alternative futures either of which could be made the present.

So all subjective opinion is 1. chosen, and 2 identifes the agency of a choice.
Judaka
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Re: The logic of making choices

Post by Judaka »

Causation in purely subjective terms is subjective, ignorance about this issue is responsible for no end of trouble. There is a clear distinction between physical causation and subjective causation - due the role of the agent in subjective caution and the necessity for them to interpret, the conclusion is necessarily biased. Where even a single factor is an interpretation, this rule applies and so while beauty for example, is a readily understandable example for subjective causation, there's no shortage of more complicated and less culturally recognised examples of interpretations which are classified in terms of physical causation.

That's because understanding about subjectivity within most cultures is mostly limited to preference and opinion. It's not just about making choices, it's about interpretation and the plethora of other subjective distinctions which exist which are represented in everything subjective, including language.
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Atreyu
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Re: The logic of making choices

Post by Atreyu »

I disagree that all subjective opinion is choice, because I don't agree that we are as in control of our own minds as much as we think we are.

But I do agree that many subjective opinions are based on arbitrarily assigning causation, since true causation cannot be known (see Kant). Pretending that we know the causes of things gives us a certain security, and helps us to navigate our way in the world. Gives us "common sense".

But the truth is that causation is beyond the purview of the ordinary human mind....
Syamsu
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Re: The logic of making choices

Post by Syamsu »

No man, it is logic, it is rules. You cannot arbitrarily apply a rule sometimes. Logic dictates that the agency of any choice can only be identified with a choice.
Belindi
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Re: The logic of making choices

Post by Belindi »

Judaka wrote: March 18th, 2018, 12:05 am Causation in purely subjective terms is subjective, ignorance about this issue is responsible for no end of trouble. There is a clear distinction between physical causation and subjective causation - due the role of the agent in subjective caution and the necessity for them to interpret, the conclusion is necessarily biased. Where even a single factor is an interpretation, this rule applies and so while beauty for example, is a readily understandable example for subjective causation, there's no shortage of more complicated and less culturally recognised examples of interpretations which are classified in terms of physical causation.

That's because understanding about subjectivity within most cultures is mostly limited to preference and opinion. It's not just about making choices, it's about interpretation and the plethora of other subjective distinctions which exist which are represented in everything subjective, including language.
I agree. When you say "subjective terms" it would be worthwhile to spell those out. E.g.
Memories, learned skills, morality, taboos, and dispositions to employ certain criteria such as immediate emotions, reasoning, or perceived authorities.
Belindi
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Re: The logic of making choices

Post by Belindi »

Judaka wrote: March 18th, 2018, 12:05 am Causation in purely subjective terms is subjective, ignorance about this issue is responsible for no end of trouble. There is a clear distinction between physical causation and subjective causation - due the role of the agent in subjective caution and the necessity for them to interpret, the conclusion is necessarily biased. Where even a single factor is an interpretation, this rule applies and so while beauty for example, is a readily understandable example for subjective causation, there's no shortage of more complicated and less culturally recognised examples of interpretations which are classified in terms of physical causation.

That's because understanding about subjectivity within most cultures is mostly limited to preference and opinion. It's not just about making choices, it's about interpretation and the plethora of other subjective distinctions which exist which are represented in everything subjective, including language.
I agree. It would be worthwhile to spell those out. E.g. memories, immediate emotions, reasoning, perceived authorities, taboos, moral code, transient cultural trends, acquired skills, and dispositions to employ any of those as any levels.
Judaka
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Re: The logic of making choices

Post by Judaka »

Belindi

Well this is actually the issue I'm talking about, there's no need to separate things into categories as you're doing because that's not important. Unless we're talking about purely factual observation then there's elements of interpretation involved. I think it doesn't seem this way because language and ideas which are imbued with interpretations are used as though their meaning is absolute and they hold applicability in physical causation. The only limitation with regards to what to do about it is reasonableness and utility, so if I punch a wall for example, is there any value is dissecting the terms I used and demonstrating how what I call a "punch" could be called something else and that the "wall" actually obstructed the path of my hand and injured it. There's a difference between being obstructed by the wall and punching it, the two things are entirely different but the difference lies within interpretation.

The physical causation aspect is clear, the processes within my brain and body that causes my hand to move as it did are induspitable. However to move beyond describing that and classify it with a word that has connotations, implications, a history, meaning and so on, means we're now moving into subjective causation. Since it's a subjective claim that I punched the wall rather than I simply punched in front of me or perhaps stretched my hand out and the wall obstructed me. The same applies to all kinds of actions and with regards to all kinds of aspects such as intent and implications.

There's nothing you've listed where I couldn't have a different understanding about than you and that makes them obvious and reasonable examples of subjective distinctions. To go back to OP's question; something happened and the reason why is unclear - how do we determine the real answer? The fact is that so long as there's some contestable aspect involved then there's no answer to that question. Was the child bullied because he is a nasty, ugly and spiteful individual or because the other children are judgemental and intolerant? It's not possible to say and there's no point buying into one version of events because it seems as though it's a simple case of causation that we've seen thousands of times before.

Seems to me, it'd be better to say "the children say they dislike the boy because he is nasty, so to fix the issue you either change the child's behaviour or change the other children's' interpretations". Which is a more genuine attempt to talk about things in physical causation terms.
Belindi
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Re: The logic of making choices

Post by Belindi »

Yes, but if you want to make things better you have to know as much about the intricacies of the causes and effects web as you possibly can.
This value to know as much as possible about all the variables applies not only to personal relationships but also to government, international relations, medicine especially psychiatry, pedagogy, and reduction of crime.

There are methods for minimalising subjectivity.
Judaka
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Re: The logic of making choices

Post by Judaka »

Belindi

Absolutely, the more you know the more likely you are to succeed.

However the point isn’t really to minimize subjectivity, it’s to distinguish between physical causation and interpretation. Consider another example, your workplace has become an unhappy place for you. Your boss, colleagues, your work… something is getting to you and you want a resolution. The physical causation aspect is that certain things make you unhappy and these things are occurring in your workplace. You have a variety of options available to you such as complaining, trying to make new friends, requesting a transfer, quitting your job and so on. That’s an attempt at fixing a problem using physical causation.

However you can also fix this problem using interpretation – change the conditions for your unhappiness by altering your interpretations or attitude. Are you a faceless individual working in a dead end job for a mega wealthy corporation that doesn’t care about you or are you an individual working for some random corporation, making a small difference to peoples’ lives by doing a good job, just waiting until you can go home and watch your favourite tv show? Interpreting the same thing in two different ways sometimes is a better solution that actually changing anything.

A better example in causal terms might be with regards to self-perception – thinking you are a loser because of X and Y rather than seeing yourself as a winner because of A and B. So identifying what problems are being caused by interpretation when it’s useful and thinking in purely physical causation terms when it’s useful – that’s the ideal. Identifying the nature of the problem should precede identifying solutions, that’s all I’m saying. Everything you’ve said is true though.
Belindi
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Re: The logic of making choices

Post by Belindi »

Judaka, I agree that if I change my perspective on a social situation ( but not for instance about what to do if I am engaged in falling off my horse) I could be more satisfied with it. There are mind -altering substances such as alcohol that do the same job, although cognitive behavioural therapy is actually recommended by the pundits.

CBT, or even religious counselling might help somebody whose perceptions are unbalanced however most reasonable people will weigh up the pros and cons of a social situation and decide to make a go of it or alternatively walk away from it according to how they balance the pros and cons.

This is where psychological counselling may be helpful; to help to remember all pros and cons which include the possibility of changing one's own perspective as you recommend Judaka. I am not disagreeing with you, I'm only saying that changing one's own perspective is one option among others.

With regard to important public affairs, such as for instance the current debate in the USA about gun control ,understanding the opposition's perspective is much to be desired by all parties. Unfortunately understanding the opposition's perspective can be and is used dishonestly for instance the use of private data for personal gain. Persons should not be means to ends, not even well- established honourable ends. But the original question regards "logic" not ethics, and it is most effective for any agent of change to equip themselves with as many views of a situation as is feasible; self knowledge is one of the most valuable perspectives to have access to.
Duckrabbit
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Re: The logic of making choices

Post by Duckrabbit »

Belindi wrote: March 24th, 2018, 6:18 am
Unfortunately understanding the opposition's perspective can be and is used dishonestly for instance the use of private data for personal gain. Persons should not be means to ends, not even well- established honourable ends.
I am responding to this sentiment rather than the main topic as such. I am in full agreement. Simone Weil brings out these notions in Gravity and Grace. People are used as means; money as an end. In America money is considered the end above all others. Cambridge Analytica is on the frontier of using science and mathematics to make the most of ever-expanding numbers of people as means. It should be reversed. Money should be seen only as a means. People should only be treated as ends in themselves. All people. Not just family members, or members of your race or tribe or your nationality. A radical, "dangerous" notion.
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