Any Tips on Reading 'Being and Time' Efficiently?

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Burning ghost
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Re: Any Tips on Reading 'Being and Time' Efficiently?

Post by Burning ghost »

ThomasHobbes wrote: June 8th, 2018, 3:39 am Dasein: the will
Ready to hand: so familiar you don't even notice it
Present at hand: stuff that is around that might be useful

The rest is just packing windbaggery.
Whee does Heidegger say “the will” and if he meant “the will” why did he say “Dasein”? The rest is lazy approximations that hardly deal with the managere of terms Heidegger used. The best thing I remember bee from B&T was Heidegger saying that you don’t hear a “bang”, you hear something that goes “bang”. Obvious, yet easy to overlook.

If you cannot give citations then I’m not interested. I once told someone that Mt. Everest was 20km high and they never batted an eyelid. Better to go to the source. And yes, learning German would certainly help :) given that English is in the same family and that many who are fluent in both languages have translated his work, and noted any discrepancies as best they can, to rely purely on Stanford Online is not really ideal - unless your working to a deadline.

I’m less of a windbag than Heidegger I hope :)
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Salola
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Re: Any Tips on Reading 'Being and Time' Efficiently?

Post by Salola »

In my opinion the table of contents (of B&T) provides a good framework for understanding the book. You should have table of contents in mind when reading B&T. And consulting it often to relate constantly everything to the whole. B&T requires multiple readings. Sooner or later it begins to make sense. (There is certain possibility though that it should be read in german. Heidegger thinks that german is especially suitable language to express philosophical thoughts. Or that in german can be attained the most adequate translation of greek words or philosophical concepts.)

To better understand B&T one should also study his lectures around 1927. One should follow Heideggers development beginning from his 1923 lecture "Ontology: The Hermeneutics of Facticity". His text from 1924 the "Concept of time" is also very helpful. Heidegger is in his lectures relatively exoteric whereas his published texts are more esoteric (his manuscripts from 30s are very esoteric).

It seems to me that the reading of B&T should be focused on the question of the truth. In this way B&T is somehow seen in continuity with the later Heidegger. Heideggers critique of the traditional concept of truth is a central point in his thinking.


Heidegger thinks that we should be inspired by the ancient Greeks as regards how they experienced Being and Truth as something intermingled. Especially the presocratic philosophers. Platon introduces truth as seen, comprehended idea located in the proposition (logos) which corresponds with beings in reality. In this way truth as aletheia (disclosedness) is separated from being and begins to live its own life and becomes correctness (utterance and what it is about should correspond. From these units is then constructed logically coherent wholes. Truth doesn't happen in the world as Being). Especially the latin translations of greek concepts brings confusion to the original concepts. They are not translated in conjunction with the greek experience (greek Being, greek Dasein). The original connection between Being and Truth disappears altogether. Only hermeneutical reading of the greek world-experience can restore this connection. And this new radical interpretation should inspire us. We should see in a new (more proper) way the tradition in which we are living.
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Salola
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Re: Any Tips on Reading 'Being and Time' Efficiently?

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Burning ghost wrote: June 6th, 2018, 11:37 pm Again .,, still waiting for a reference to Heidegger’s actual words with citations. I have a copy of B&T so please show me where he makes his definition of Dasein clear.
If you unconditionally require definitions you should turn to Spinoza instead of Heidegger? It is by the way interesting that Heidegger was not interested at all in Spinoza. Spinoza was after all a important figure for the german idealism. Overly rationalistic or geometrical-logical for Heidegger?
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Burning ghost
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Re: Any Tips on Reading 'Being and Time' Efficiently?

Post by Burning ghost »

If a new term is introduced I merely ask for clarification of what it means before the author proceeds in continually using said term.

In part two the subtitle is “The Ontological Analysis of Da-sein as the Exposure of the Horizon for an Interpretation of the Meaning of Being in General”

Point being there is sparse clarification as to what is meant by Da-sein and the term is then peppered across the pages repeatedly - a quick glance at the first paragraphs I count the term used at least the times. None of these instances make the meaning any clearer yet they are, quite obviously, fundamental to the comprehension of the reader.

The whole work is an attempt to frame ONE definition, that of what is meant by “da-sein”. Would it have hurt to just state what was meant at the beginning of the feat and the real goal of the project?

The reason no one can agree on what it means is because Heidegger didn’t have a way of breaking away from interpretation. He uses the term ubiquitously yet carefully buries it under other terminological conundrums in order not to have to face the problem of a direct explication.

Some of it sticks, a lot of it looks like to sticks, and some of it doesn’t. It’s still worth a read though :)
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Re: Any Tips on Reading 'Being and Time' Efficiently?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Burning ghost wrote: June 8th, 2018, 4:04 am
ThomasHobbes wrote: June 8th, 2018, 3:39 am Dasein: the will
Ready to hand: so familiar you don't even notice it
Present at hand: stuff that is around that might be useful

The rest is just packing windbaggery.
Whee does Heidegger say “the will” and if he meant “the will” why did he say “Dasein”? The rest is lazy approximations that hardly deal with the managere of terms Heidegger used. The best thing I remember bee from B&T was Heidegger saying that you don’t hear a “bang”, you hear something that goes “bang”. Obvious, yet easy to overlook.
If you think it is not the will, then please define what it actually is!

If you cannot give citations then I’m not interested. I once told someone that Mt. Everest was 20km high and they never batted an eyelid. Better to go to the source. And yes, learning German would certainly help :) given that English is in the same family and that many who are fluent in both languages have translated his work, and noted any discrepancies as best they can, to rely purely on Stanford Online is not really ideal - unless your working to a deadline.

I’m less of a windbag than Heidegger I hope :)
Citations are worthless, unless you are going through the pain of undergrad study, then they are just a nuisance.
If that is the case then read secondary sources and use their citations as if you had read them yourself.
As for translations - the fact that difference translations give different meaning should give you a clue about the nature of interpretation. As two people can read the same thing is their native tongue and still find different meanings from the same passage, you might want to reflect upon you off hand reference to 'discrepancies' as if they are just an inconvenience, when in fact they are what makes philosophy interesting.
Derrida declares the death of the author for very good reasons.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Any Tips on Reading 'Being and Time' Efficiently?

Post by Burning ghost »

TH -

I was asking what it meant because I could give several citations of what Heidegger says it means (some which look quite contradictory.)

Don’t get me started on Derrida! Haha! Maybe that is why you say “citations are worthless”? And readin what other people say something means is more important to you than bothering to read the actual text?

If everything is merely about subjective interpretation then anything can mean whatever it is you want it to mean and the author’s intent is utterly redundant. Maybe you’re happy with that idea?

When I ask about Heidegger’s “da-sein” and what he meant it comes as little surprise to me to be met with empty rhetoric. If I took your view of “will” to be the true meaning and never read the actually text I’d be a fool. I ask for citations because I am unwilling to assume you know what you’re talking about simply because you say so.
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Salola
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Re: Any Tips on Reading 'Being and Time' Efficiently?

Post by Salola »

"the greek connection" above indicated is after all not much at the forefront in B&T. Aristoteles (and greek Dasein) is there on the background though. Aristoteles is the most cited author in B&T. Kant is second and Descartes third. 4. Dilthey 5. Hegel 6. Husserl

Second volume (never wriiten) of B&T would have treated Kant, Descartes and Aristoteles (in this "reverse" order "towards the beginning").
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Re: Any Tips on Reading 'Being and Time' Efficiently?

Post by Spectrum »

Salola wrote: June 9th, 2018, 8:23 am "the greek connection" above indicated is after all not much at the forefront in B&T. Aristoteles (and greek Dasein) is there on the background though. Aristoteles is the most cited author in B&T. Kant is second and Descartes third. 4. Dilthey 5. Hegel 6. Husserl

Second volume (never wriiten) of B&T would have treated Kant, Descartes and Aristoteles (in this "reverse" order "towards the beginning").
Now that I have covered a reasonable extent of B&T;

Yes, background. Note I raised this thread,
Heidegger: All Prior Western Views of Being Are Wrong!
Heidegger claimed in his Being and Time, the Question of Being [QOB] was raised [explored] during Plato and Aristotle but from then the QOB has been led astray to the present within Western Philosophy.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15641
One critical point is the ancient Greeks did not take into account temporality sufficiently.

Parmenides did consider 'making present' but was not enough,
However, this Greek interpretation [Parmenides'] of being comes about
•without any explicit knowledge of the guideline functioning in it,
•without taking cognizance of or understanding the fundamental ontological function of time,
•without insight into the ground of the possibility of this function [of time]. pg 26
Other than the above consolation for the ancient Greeks, Heidegger condemned all other Western Philosophies up to his time as inadequate in dealing with 'being'. I don't agree with Heidegger's condemnation.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Any Tips on Reading 'Being and Time' Efficiently?

Post by Burning ghost »

TH -

For what it’s worth Heidegger meant to conflate being and time to produce a distinct term; that being Da-sein. Somehow he managed to write a whole book to say this.

We could, in parallel with “fear is afraid of ... anxiety is anxious about”, say that Dasein is the -ing of be-there. Sadly though such an attempt falls short because Heidegger (as he does throughout) contradicts any attempt made and then hides it like a dog eating its own **** - “ ... presupposes historical being toward Dasein that has-been-there, that is, the historicity of the historian’s existence.”

And to pick up my notes and select some things at random ...

“However, disclosedness is the basic character of Dasein in accordance with which it is its there.”

“Dasein knows about the certainty of death, and yet avoids being certain.”

“And how is Dasein this thrown ground? Only by projecting itself upon the possibilities into which it is thrown.”

And keep in mind NO serious attempt is made to outline what Dasein is meant to mean to the reader. He simply drops the term in, gives a vague impression and then proceeds to act as if the reader has been given a complete and obvious definition. Not only this he then proceeds to use this half-armed term in analogies of analogies and seems to mockingly talk about not falling into a kind of semantic mysticism - probably because he realized he was doing just such a thing and didn’t know how to stop.

To go to the opening of his work he acts like he’s the first person to come across the age old question of the “What” question.

P.6

“The being of being “is” itself not a being.” And then suggests to “understand” by erasing history and pretending that we can refer to “possibility” as some extra temporal entity (which in our state we cannot even imagine only outline as a distant unobtainable pattern formed by language - with words like “possible” and “time”.)

Note: the term Dasein has not even been introduced at this point ...

Then we have :

“If the question of being is to be explicitly formulated and brought to complete clarity concerning itself” - allow me to interject! What is this idea of completeness? And what kind of “clarity” are we talking of? Furthermore if some item is to be made in any way “explicit” then doesn’t this mean it requires an “explanation”? And does not an “explanation” require, by definition, a temporal frame? If so the question is empty.

Note: in previous paragraph he says “... they must for their part have become accessible in advance as they are in themselves.” He is pretending to talk in an extra temporal manner about these items. Surely we realize the vast fault in doing so and the empty claim of making something “explicit” without holding the very language in use to account for it’s temporal frame?

Note: Dasein has yet to be mentioned ...

Here is the first utterance of Dasein:

“... Thus to work out the question of being means to make a being - one who questions - transparent in its being. Asking this question, as a mode of being of a being, is itself essentially determined by what is asked about in it - being. This being which we ourselves in each case are and which includes inquiry among the possibilities of its being we formulate terminologically as Da-sein.”

Insert “question” where he writes “being” - that is what he claims to “mean”.
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