What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"); such homework-help-style questions can be asked and answered on PhiloPedia: The Philosophy Wiki. If your question is not already answered on the appropriate PhiloPedia page, then see How to Request Content on PhiloPedia to see how to ask your informational question using the wiki.
Post Reply
Dachshund
Posts: 385
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by Dachshund » May 28th, 2018, 5:59 am

I have a question for this forum.

If any reader of this post were to swallow a 500 microgram tablet of the drug LSD-25 right now, then in, - let's say,- 45 minutes time, they would be experiencing dramatic "psychedelic" ( and other) alterations in their waking phenomenal consciousness. IF, they found these changes in their phenomenal consciousness unpleasant, they would not be able to stop them. They would not be able to intentionally "will" the bizarre effects of the drug on their consciousness to stop. The psychotomimetic/ psychedelic phenomena would continue to exist in their minds and would not completely terminate until most of the 500 mcg dose of LSD-25 they had swallowed had been eliminated from their body (excreted from their blood plasma)

Thus we see that there is no such thing as free will, because if there were, the disaffected subject who had swallowed the LSD-25 tablet above would be able to consciously will themselves back into a sober state of mind 45 minutes after they had swallowed the drug, right ?

Regards

Dachshund

Eduk
Posts: 1614
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by Eduk » May 28th, 2018, 7:01 am

That makes no sense. It like saying I can't make a fist because if I broke all my fingers I wouldn't be able to make a fist.

Dachshund
Posts: 385
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by Dachshund » May 28th, 2018, 7:44 am

Eduk,

You are right. I must apologise, I got tangled up in my own thinking (again)

Dachshund

User avatar
-1-
Posts: 879
Joined: December 1st, 2016, 2:23 am

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by -1- » May 28th, 2018, 11:51 am

Buddhists can free will.
This search engine is powered by Hunger, Thirst, and a desperate need to Mate.

User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 2919
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by LuckyR » May 29th, 2018, 4:35 am

The OP addresses will, just not free will.
"As usual... it depends."

Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 327
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » May 29th, 2018, 4:54 am

Dachshund wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 5:59 am
Thus we see that there is no such thing as free will, because if there were, the disaffected subject who had swallowed the LSD-25 tablet above would be able to consciously will themselves back into a sober state of mind 45 minutes after they had swallowed the drug, right ?
I don't see why controlled perceptions, which is not possible off LSD either, gives any evidence there is no free will. If I am on a train and the motion makes me 'sea sick' and I cannot stop this, I can still make decisions, just as one can on LSD, to talk to a friend, look at the view, take off my jacket, stare at the lines in my palm...and so on. Maybe those decisions are determined, in both scenarios, maybe not, but we generally cannot unsee things unless we close our eyes, and then, after a while, even not on hallucinogens, memories, images, flashes will arise, and not due to our decisions.

I don't see claims to free will generally saying that one can control everything in one's body, but rather that decisions can be made freely. I could have done X or Y. Not i could have made my migraine go away. I could have decided not to be shy. I could have stopped being color blind. I could have stopped the poisoness mushrooms I ate from making me feel sick and then destroying my liver.

Dachshund
Posts: 385
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by Dachshund » May 29th, 2018, 5:40 am

If I have a bad trip on sme psychotomimetic/psychedelic drug, like LSD-25 or Psilocybin or Hyoscine, I can, perversely enough, consciously rationally desire/intend to terminate the experience asap, but there is no way that I can do this with any kind of mental effort that I might apply. I can decide to stop thinking certain frightening or nasty thoughts or seeing in my certain unpleasant images in my phenomenal consciousness , and succeed in doing this doing this through a mental effort if I am an average, healthy adult and not afflicted, say with some kind of psychotic psychiatric disorder that is their cause.

But you are right, I conflated the notions of will and free will, which are, as you know different concepts entirely. My bad !!

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 658
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 29th, 2018, 5:46 am

Dachshund wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 5:59 am
I have a question for this forum.

If any reader of this post were to swallow a 500 microgram tablet of the drug LSD-25 right now, then in, - let's say,- 45 minutes time, they would be experiencing dramatic "psychedelic" ( and other) alterations in their waking phenomenal consciousness. IF, they found these changes in their phenomenal consciousness unpleasant, they would not be able to stop them. They would not be able to intentionally "will" the bizarre effects of the drug on their consciousness to stop. The psychotomimetic/ psychedelic phenomena would continue to exist in their minds and would not completely terminate until most of the 500 mcg dose of LSD-25 they had swallowed had been eliminated from their body (excreted from their blood plasma)

Thus we see that there is no such thing as free will, because if there were, the disaffected subject who had swallowed the LSD-25 tablet above would be able to consciously will themselves back into a sober state of mind 45 minutes after they had swallowed the drug, right ?

Regards

Dachshund

Free will becomes revealed as a myth when you drop acid.
The Lyseric Acid transforms the mind, by the necessity of cause and effect, in the same way that the rest of the universe operates in every cell of your body since your conception ad infinitem to the beginning of time.
Nothing is 'free' of the physical characteristic of the universe, that seems to be infinitesimally inductively true. But also because it simply does not make logical sense to think it could, regardless of the endless replicability of empirical evidence.

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 658
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 29th, 2018, 5:49 am

Dachshund wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 5:40 am
If I have a bad trip on sme psychotomimetic/psychedelic drug, like LSD-25 or Psilocybin or Hyoscine, I can, perversely enough, consciously rationally desire/intend to terminate the experience asap, but there is no way that I can do this with any kind of mental effort that I might apply. I can decide to stop thinking certain frightening or nasty thoughts or seeing in my certain unpleasant images in my phenomenal consciousness , and succeed in doing this doing this through a mental effort if I am an average, healthy adult and not afflicted, say with some kind of psychotic psychiatric disorder that is their cause.

But you are right, I conflated the notions of will and free will, which are, as you know different concepts entirely. My bad !!
What is the "I", In " I can decide to stop thinking certain frightening or nasty thoughts or seeing in my certain unpleasant images in my phenomenal consciousness , and succeed in doing this doing this through a mental effort if I am an average, healthy adult" ?

What is the "I" that has not been caused by all antecedent effects such as where and when you were born, your genetic motivations, and your learned and other experiences, all from which you have never been 'free'?

Dachshund
Posts: 385
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by Dachshund » May 29th, 2018, 8:21 am

Suppose you have just witnessed something very ugly and distressing like an ISIS terrorist in the act of beheading one of their enemies on an internet video. In the minutes after you have seen this video, you find that the brutal images it contained tend to keep popping into your consciousness seemingly of their own accord. You do not like this, naturally, and so you make a mental effort to immediately "push "any such images out of your mind the instant they appear, or the instant you sense they are threatening to re-appear, and then you immediately make a determined "conscious effort" to focus your thoughts/or attention on something else; something pleasant perhaps, that has nothing to do whatsoever with anything remotely connected to ISIS terrorists and their barbarous behaviour.

You know what I mean, right ?

Dachshund

Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 327
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » May 29th, 2018, 9:07 am

Dachshund wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 5:40 am
If I have a bad trip on sme psychotomimetic/psychedelic drug, like LSD-25 or Psilocybin or Hyoscine, I can, perversely enough, consciously rationally desire/intend to terminate the experience asap, but there is no way that I can do this with any kind of mental effort that I might apply. I can decide to stop thinking certain frightening or nasty thoughts or seeing in my certain unpleasant images in my phenomenal consciousness , and succeed in doing this doing this through a mental effort if I am an average, healthy adult and not afflicted, say with some kind of psychotic psychiatric disorder that is their cause.
There certainly can be more stimuli in a trip, but it is quantitatively different from everyday life, not qualitatively. I cannot eliminate many portions of my experiencing and cognitive reactions, in normal states. I can, even tripping hard, make choices. This may be utterly determined, they may not.
But you are right, I conflated the notions of will and free will, which are, as you know different concepts entirely. My bad !!
No problem.

Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 327
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » May 29th, 2018, 9:09 am

Dachshund wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 8:21 am
Suppose you have just witnessed something very ugly and distressing like an ISIS terrorist in the act of beheading one of their enemies on an internet video. In the minutes after you have seen this video, you find that the brutal images it contained tend to keep popping into your consciousness seemingly of their own accord. You do not like this, naturally, and so you make a mental effort to immediately "push "any such images out of your mind the instant they appear, or the instant you sense they are threatening to re-appear, and then you immediately make a determined "conscious effort" to focus your thoughts/or attention on something else; something pleasant perhaps, that has nothing to do whatsoever with anything remotely connected to ISIS terrorists and their barbarous behaviour.

You know what I mean, right ?

Dachshund
Sure, and there are things one can do when tripping to reduce or minimize visuals. In normal states I cannot look at things and take away the colors. I can cover my ears, but I will still hear sounds, even internal ones made by the circulatory system. We never have full control of our experiencing. Whether we have free will over those things we decide and do is another story.

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 658
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: What Happens to Free Will 30 minutes after you drop 500 mcg of LSD-25?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 29th, 2018, 1:21 pm

Dachshund wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 8:21 am
Suppose you have just witnessed something very ugly and distressing like an ISIS terrorist in the act of beheading one of their enemies on an internet video. In the minutes after you have seen this video, you find that the brutal images it contained tend to keep popping into your consciousness seemingly of their own accord. You do not like this, naturally, and so you make a mental effort to immediately "push "any such images out of your mind the instant they appear, or the instant you sense they are threatening to re-appear, and then you immediately make a determined "conscious effort" to focus your thoughts/or attention on something else; something pleasant perhaps, that has nothing to do whatsoever with anything remotely connected to ISIS terrorists and their barbarous behaviour.

You know what I mean, right ?

Dachshund
How do you think this relates to free will?

Post Reply