Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Post Reply
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Dachshund »

Like the Irish-born British political philosopher Edmund Burke I am fascinated by the night sky. When I gaze into the starry heavens I feel the sense of a strangely delightful reverential awe at my own subordination before the terrifying boundlessness of the infinite night sky.

I think to myself that if I were to build a special rocket and fire it vertically up from Earth into the heavens above me, that this rocket, once it had escaped the Earth's atmosphere and entered into space proper, would continue to travel forward in a straight line for ever. This is because , as I say , it is a special rocket that has been fitted with sophisticated technology that alerts it to the looming presence of any object in its flight path that it might crash into like an asteroid or a planet or a star, or any other phenomenon in space that might destroy it should it fly too close toward it, like a black hole, for example. This technology automatically instructs my rocket to swerve around any such space- hazards at a safe distance and then, once it has past by them safely, to re-orient itself back into flying forward along the straight linear path that it was taking before the hazard/s were sensed by the technical devices on-board and the diversionary action ( of flying around them) was taken.

So, in sum, this rocket is travelling forward/ahead in a straight line through space just like the Apollo 11's module ("Eagle") as it flew through space towards the moon, only my rocket would swerves around the moon or anything else blocking its way or threatening to somehow stop it or destroy it. My rocket, that is, ultimately just keeps on flying forward along its original linear trajectory deeper and deeper and deeper into space...

My question is this... Am I right in thinking that this special rocket of mine will never stop flying ,that it will literally continue to track forward along its line of flight for ever ( for eternity) as there is nothing to stop it? Its mission , that is, is called "Potential Infinity", for no matter how many space miles it puts behind it there will always be another one ahead to traverse, then after that another one, and then another one and so on and on . Is there anything wrong with my presuming that this is, in fact, what will actually happen ?

Regards

Dachshund
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Eduk »

Well it can't travel for eternity. It can only travel for a real amount of time.
My personal take on this would be that there are a number of options.
1. As you describe it simply keeps going.
2. Forces such as gravity eventually cause the rocket to stop. There is finite energy in the universe so this is inevitable no matter how well designed the rocket.
3. The universe crashes due to an exception caused by a rocket being over bounds.
Unknown means unknown.
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Dachshund »

Keeps going towards WHAT ?
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Eduk »

That would depend on what space and time are.
Personally I have no idea what time is, what space is or how it is possible to move. I only know that I am able to move and meet people at set times.
Unknown means unknown.
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Dachshund »

Please explain option 3 in more detail. What do you mean by "over bounds" and what do you mean by the universe "crashing"? What happens exactly when the universe "crashes"?
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Eduk »

Coincidentally I was just listening to a podcast which had a theory about space time. That it is an emergent property of entangles qubits. So space time is not fundamental. What ramifications this has to our conversation though I have no idea.
3. Is a joke on my part. Sometimes a computer game will crash if you go to an area of the game which is unexpected by the programmer. Although I doubt we something as simple as a computer game we could be some kind of a program.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Halc
Posts: 405
Joined: March 17th, 2018, 9:47 pm

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Halc »

Dachshund wrote: May 29th, 2018, 9:25 am I think to myself that if I were to build a special rocket and fire it vertically up from Earth into the heavens above me, that this rocket, once it had escaped the Earth's atmosphere and entered into space proper, would continue to travel forward in a straight line for ever.
This is plausible to imagine. A real rocket would run out of fuel quickly, but could continue to accelerate using a technology like a Bussard ramjet.

Without acceleration, we could fire the ship out of a cannon at near lightspeed, or you could just consider Earth already traveling at that speed in a different intertial reference frame, although the trip would be less sexy since it would be a lot like staying home and not really going anywhere. So let's go with the Bussard rocket. Perfectly reasonable to imagine it avoiding obstacles.

Option 2 is to shine light in some direction without obstacles. How far will that light get? OK, you don't get to look out the window if you consider this option, but the mathematics is not a whole lot different. There is no need to accelerate it since light always travels at lightspeed while the rocket is always less than that.


My question is this... Am I right in thinking that this special rocket of mine will never stop flying ,that it will literally continue to track forward along its line of flight for ever ( for eternity) as there is nothing to stop it?
The rocket (or the supply of fuel through which it flies) will eventually decay/be consumed by entropy. Not so much the light photons which don't die the entropy death so long as they don't hit anything.

The only mathematical limit is the event horizon. The ship cannot get to it, and neither can the light we projected. If it can be said that there is anything beyond that event horizon, it is inaccessible from Earth by any means. That doesn't mean the ship will not travel infinitely far. That event horizon recedes (in proper distance) over time, so your ship continues to move so long as it exists, and there will continue to be 'stuff'' in front of the ship. But if there are two alien ships way out there in reasonable proximity to each other, but one just inside and the other just outside of Earth's event horizon, your ship/light could only ever reach the former alien ship or its light, and then only if the alien ship is coming towards us as much as much as your ship is attempting to reach it. The other alien ship is utterly inaccessible to your ship and thus effectively exists as much as unicorns.
Its mission , that is, is called "Potential Infinity", for no matter how many space miles it puts behind it there will always be another one ahead to traverse, then after that another one, and then another one and so on and on . Is there anything wrong with my presuming that this is, in fact, what will actually happen ?
There will always be more space and matter in front of it, unless space itself collapses in a big crunch, which appears to not be the case. It is expanding, and the expansion is accelerating, not slowing down. It is unlikely to ever turn around. Without accelerating expansion, there would be no event horizon.
User avatar
Halc
Posts: 405
Joined: March 17th, 2018, 9:47 pm

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Halc »

Eduk wrote: May 29th, 2018, 10:42 am 2. Forces such as gravity eventually cause the rocket to stop. There is finite energy in the universe so this is inevitable no matter how well designed the rocket.
Matter is evenly distributed on average, so gravity is not going to slow anything down in the long run. It pulls as often as it pushes. If energy runs out, the ship simply keeps going at whatever velocity it has achieved but it ceases to accelerate further.
3. The universe crashes due to an exception caused by a rocket being over bounds.
This makes it sound like the universe cares about the rocket. I mentioned the big crunch (big bang in reverse, implying a finite limit to time), but the rocket doesn't have any effect on that if it is the eventual fate. Big rip is also a limit to time. That happens if the event horizon ever shrinks to size zero, after which the universe ends just as much as the crunch scenario.
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Dachshund »

What is space expanding INTO ?
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Dachshund »

Thanks for your reply Halc. Apart from the question above, I have another which is this ... We have all seen video footage of NASA's Juno probe travelling through space, but what is space?. I mean, what is Juno actually travelling THROUGH ?

Regards

Dachshund
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Dachshund wrote: May 29th, 2018, 9:25 am Like the Irish-born British political philosopher Edmund Burke I am fascinated by the night sky. When I gaze into the starry heavens I feel the sense of a strangely delightful reverential awe at my own subordination before the terrifying boundlessness of the infinite night sky.

I think to myself that if I were to build a special rocket and fire it vertically up from Earth into the heavens above me, that this rocket, once it had escaped the Earth's atmosphere and entered into space proper, would continue to travel forward in a straight line for ever. This is because , as I say , it is a special rocket that has been fitted with sophisticated technology that alerts it to the looming presence of any object in its flight path that it might crash into like an asteroid or a planet or a star, or any other phenomenon in space that might destroy it should it fly too close toward it, like a black hole, for example. This technology automatically instructs my rocket to swerve around any such space- hazards at a safe distance and then, once it has past by them safely, to re-orient itself back into flying forward along the straight linear path that it was taking before the hazard/s were sensed by the technical devices on-board and the diversionary action ( of flying around them) was taken.

So, in sum, this rocket is travelling forward/ahead in a straight line through space just like the Apollo 11's module ("Eagle") as it flew through space towards the moon, only my rocket would swerves around the moon or anything else blocking its way or threatening to somehow stop it or destroy it. My rocket, that is, ultimately just keeps on flying forward along its original linear trajectory deeper and deeper and deeper into space...

My question is this... Am I right in thinking that this special rocket of mine will never stop flying ,that it will literally continue to track forward along its line of flight for ever ( for eternity) as there is nothing to stop it? Its mission , that is, is called "Potential Infinity", for no matter how many space miles it puts behind it there will always be another one ahead to traverse, then after that another one, and then another one and so on and on . Is there anything wrong with my presuming that this is, in fact, what will actually happen ?

Regards

Dachshund
(A) The size of the universe is defined by the relation between its parts.
Two things.
1 yes you shall continue for ever but the universe is expanding faster than your ship is travelling. So there would be no problem to continue for eternity.
2 In the unlikely event that you could go faster than the universe is expanding, your own expansion beyond the 'edge' would simply increase the dimension of the universe along your path. (See A)
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Eduk »

Daschund no one knows what space time is. I gave one possibility above.

Halc my point 3 is not supposed to be serious. And my point 2 was not supposed to be accepted as fact, it's just a possibility. The universe is not perfectly homogeneous.
Unknown means unknown.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Eduk »

TH there is one very large problem with going for eternity. It is impossible because it isnt a length of time which exists.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Eduk wrote: May 29th, 2018, 10:42 am. There is finite energy in the universe so this is inevitable no matter how well designed the rocket..
You do not need any energy to keep moving. You only need energy to slow down.

"TH there is one very large problem with going for eternity. It is impossible because it isnt a length of time which exists."

I do not think this makes any sense whatever.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Request for Help re the Notion of Potential Infinity

Post by Eduk »

TH point 2 is predicated on a force acting on the rocket, ie gravity. Again I'm not saying point 2 is factual, only possible.
What's the confusion about eternity? Let us imagine we travel on the rocket for ten years. Obviously we could travel a day longer. Also we are no closer to having travelled for eternity than before we started ten years ago. If you replace ten years with any number all the above still holds. Any real number can't be eternity and is infinitely far away from eternity. You can't travel eternally in reality. This seems straight forward to me.
Unknown means unknown.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021