Are Transwomen Women?

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Greta » July 8th, 2018, 8:04 pm

Indeed there is a difference. I believe that is why some transpeople request surgery.

*sigh*

Why don't you just come straight out and say that your interpretation of the Bible means that you cannot accept queer people as equal - neither transpeople or gays? It's pure ideology sprinkled with post hoc rationalisations that have no doubt been expressed for many years until it was found that, for some people, there was only one way they could live in the world, where the choice is change or an early grave.

This is just awful. Having been bullied terribly for my disabilities at school, forcing me to drop out without matriculation, I still today find this kind of unreasoned hostility towards the disempowered upsetting and disturbing. It brings back a lot of painful stuff because I can see in some attitudes on the forum the same kind of hatred that was present in the bullies. There is no mercy, no compromise, no quarter, just damnation.

Will we ever learn? Will we ever transcend this horrible tendency to destroy those whom we perceive as the weakest? Is mercy really only important for the few?

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Burning ghost » July 8th, 2018, 9:58 pm

Newme -

Greta was “with Alias.” If you need an example of strawman arguments look at that exchange.

Anyone “with” soeone spouting nonsense and twisting words to avoid the investigation is better off left to their own devices.

Greta -

You see hostility where others see science. You can take offense, but nature doesn’t care. Painting anyone with different views as “bullies” yet supporting bullies like Alias is hypocritical - I a m crying “bully” now to drive home the point. Make an argumet rather than playing the victim pehaps, but please don’t resort to Alias’ immature tactics and proud stupidity.
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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul » July 8th, 2018, 10:11 pm

FYI:

"Being Transgender Is No Longer Considered A Mental Disorder By World Health Organization

The World Health Organization will no longer classify being transgender as a mental health disorder, the public health agency announced Monday.…"


Source: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/be ... ccounter=1

"Gender incongruence, meanwhile, has also been moved out of mental disorders in the ICD, into sexual health conditions. The rationale being that while evidence is now clear that it is not a mental disorder, and indeed classifying it in this can cause enormous stigma for people who are transgender, there remain significant health care needs that can best be met if the condition is coded under the ICD."

Source: http://www.who.int/health-topics/intern ... f-diseases
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul » July 8th, 2018, 10:30 pm

Newme wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 9:57 pm
Those who try (in vain) to change their sex, regret it and often suffer more mental illness, including suicide - even when those around them were supporting their delusions. Again, it’s cruel to knowingly support delusions of people who struggle with reality.
A man/woman cannot become completely/totally female/male, because transwomen/transmen will remain genetically male/female; but they can become almost female/male or quasi-women/quasi-men through being feminized/masculinized physically/physiologically. Moreover, the normative question as to whether transwomen/transmen ought to have the social and legal status of women/men isn't determined by nature, by the biological facts.
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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul » July 8th, 2018, 10:33 pm

Consul wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 10:30 pm
Moreover, the normative question as to whether transwomen/transmen ought to have the social and legal status of women/men isn't determined by nature, by the biological facts.
This is by no means to say that natural, biological facts are irrelevant to moral or legal issues, but only that an "ought" cannot simply be derived from an "is".
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Greta » July 8th, 2018, 10:40 pm

Burning ghost wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 9:58 pm
Newme -

Greta was “with Alias.” If you need an example of strawman arguments look at that exchange.

Anyone “with” soeone spouting nonsense and twisting words to avoid the investigation is better off left to their own devices.

Greta -

You see hostility where others see science. You can take offense, but nature doesn’t care. Painting anyone with different views as “bullies” yet supporting bullies like Alias is hypocritical - I a m crying “bully” now to drive home the point. Make an argumet rather than playing the victim pehaps, but please don’t resort to Alias’ immature tactics and proud stupidity.
Investigation? Where is the science? The demonstration that male and female genitalia are different is the extent of the "science" presented. Talk about strawpersons.

The science on the topic was performed by people known as "scientists" and "doctors", you see. They actually know a tiny bit more about these things than us randoms on public forums. This issue is very much like climate change - where people convince themselves that they know better than the (despised) "experts" based on post hoc rationalisations.

It is experts who actually know what they are talking about in this and other things - and they are the ones who must have found that some treatments, like surgery, work better than leaving people to be depressed and often kill themselves. This is the medical orthodoxy. This is where the research - no doubt many decades of it - had lead to. But you want to "question the science" based on ... ?

Do you think these people would routinely make such a tumultuous life changing decision on the spur of the moment? A whim that is easily fixed by a quick dose of cognitive therapy? You seem to think that this and everything else has not been tried before - for decades? No doubt doctors can't just hack away at people without significant psychiatric assessment being done beforehand to see if there's a viable less invasive option.

That's the problem with the thread - all it does is encourage people without a clue to undermine some of the most vulnerable people in society. Bullying. Also your information about bullying is wrong - it pertains to a persistent pattern of behaviour. Alias objected to the lack of ethics and empathy on display. She chose to stand up for the weak who were effectively being bullied - a continuation of systematic abuse over a long time.

A question asking what people might think lies behind gender issues might make sense, but asking a question like this one that encourages people to ignore the science - like "Is Climate Change real?" - is simply providing a setting for those who know nothing about topics to advertise that fact - while convincing themselves they are making groundbreaking points that the "experts" had not thought of before.

Of course transwomen are not "women" as per anatomy books because the only magic wands available in society are those wielded by theists of the Abrahamic persuasion - and they aren't sharing their magic potions unless you buy all of their snake oil.

But the veracity of change is never the point. The real issue is people's lives. That is, people living in barely-enlightened times who don't fit in simply try to find ways of being authentic (to their own subjective nature, if nothing else) while trying to fit in to society. This is obvious when you think about it for more than a moment. What do you think these unfortunates are trying to do - find an excuse to go into women's toilets? Does that mean females who transition to male do so to perv on men in public toilets too?

As I say, this was a poor topic premise with a blindingly obvious answer - obviously no, duh! - that manages to hide the more important aspects of the issue, ie. disempowered people in difficult situations trying to live their lives.

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Burning ghost » July 8th, 2018, 10:41 pm

Consul -

Yes, it is incorrect to term transgenderism as an “illness” anymore than it is to term homsexual behaviour as an “illness.” The same goes for Down syndrome. More importantly we’ve seen a refusal to face the facts adn a conflation of biology and opinion. I am not convinced that sex change operations are required in every circumstance; in fact I would use the same ammunition used against me and others and claim that “sex change” operations are merely a social construct and to be disposed of - that would be silly though, yet on one side of the argument (the deluded side) it is perfectly acceptable to say such a thing just before crying about the injustice of the world.

To be clear, the point of the OP is about Women and Transwomen. They are NOT the same. End of story. If they are not the same then they should not be treated the same becasue they think they should - there are physical differences. We’ve been over the sports issue, yet out there in the real world people have been gaining an unfair advantage due to their biological history (muscle mass etc.) Everyone should be treated with equal respect as humans (even the “wormkin”) and beyond that “equality” shouldn’t creep much further.

Mental instability crossing all boundaries and those on the social fringes are more likely to group together or suffer from illness by way of stress.

There was a case fo body dismorphia with a guy who felt like his leg was someone else’s leg even though it functioned perfectly. He was not mentally ill and chose to have his leg removed - the other option was brain surgery.

Newme -

It is certainly a little strange to label someone as “ill”because they feel like a women/man? Now, those that claim they are a woman when they used to have a penis are delusional. That is different. When it comes to being “deluded” I am pretty sure every huma being falls into that category.
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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Burning ghost » July 8th, 2018, 10:46 pm

Greta -

Is seems pointless talking to you so why should I read anything you write? If you’re “with” what Alias said then ou’re beyond ratoinal debate. If I need to point out why, like I already did to Alias, then my stance remains the same on the fruitlessness of even considering reading beyond the first 2 or 3 lines of your posturing.

If this isn’t clear enough for you then let me say that if you fully back Alias’ “responses” to me (which felt like a fart in my face after careful attempts to engage and explain) then on thie subject matter we’ve nowhere to begin and have to accept each other at loggerheads.
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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul » July 8th, 2018, 11:03 pm

Newme wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 1:46 pm
Transgender implies a denial of one’s biological reality.
No (non-schizophrenic) pre-transformative transsexual man denies having a male body; he just desires/wants to have a female body. When he looks in the mirror he is painfully aware of his "biological reality", which is precisely what he wants to change. He cannot change his sex completely, because male chromosomes cannot be replaced by female ones; but all other biological aspects of sex can be changed, so a man can become almost female:

*  genitals (penis vs. vagina)
* gonads (testes vs. ovaries) [Gonad transplants in transsexuals aren't feasible yet, but they're physically and surgically possible in principle]
* hormones (males have higher relative levels of testosterone than women, while women have higher levels of estrogen)
* secondary sex characteristics that aren’t connected with the reproductive system but distinguish the sexes, and usually appear at puberty (breasts, facial hair, size of larynx, subcutaneous fat, etc.)
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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Greta » July 8th, 2018, 11:50 pm

Burning ghost wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 10:46 pm
... have to accept each other at loggerheads.
I don't care what Alias said, I care what I said, and since that has apparently put you and me at loggerheads, and given the faulty premise of the thread in the first place - let's ask if dogs are really cats, or if the Moon is really the Sun? - it's time to move on since this thread has shed no light and is just a place where the strong can take pot shots at the weak without fair cause.

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