Are Transwomen Women?

[Eduk]

What did reimer disprove?

[Burning ghost]

An alternative to asking what 'what' means would be a thoughtful definition of woman. For example does the term woman apply only to physical characteristics or also mental characteristics. For me if a transwomen says they are a woman then the interesting question is to ask why they think that. And I, personally, would be uncomfortable simply laughing in their face and telling them they are too thick to understand they have a penis and not a vagina. At least until I heard their reasons.

Those can kind trans women can go take a jumping jump for all I care. Those that say I feel like a women, but know I’m not, are rational people and have my respect.

No, I wouldn’t laugh at someone who is deluded on purpose. I may do thinking they were joking though.

It is fine to say that you feel like a woman even though you are quite aware that you have a penis and a man’s body. I draw the line at playing along with the delusional types who in spite of their obvious physical condition refuse to accept it and expect others to buy into to their self-made delusion.

None of this is to say I believe all transgenders are delusional. Some humans are delusoinal and others less so.

[Eduk]

None of this is to say I believe all transgenders are delusional. Some humans are delusoinal and others less so.

Good. So we agree. The answer to 'are transwomen women' is that it depends. It depends on intended usage of woman. It depends on specific circumstance. Life is complex and has nuance. For example Elon Musk recently wrote 'nano is 100% synonymous with bs'. Now nano is often used on bs sites to sell snake oil but it is also real science with real working examples. Now it's hard to tell how tongue in cheek Elon was being but regardless my point is that because you can point to one misuse of the term nano doesn't mean that all misuse of the term nano is wrong.

[Burning ghost]

Eduk -

I don’t think you understand English. I don’t agree. Trans women are not women, yellow is not blue, and I am not a mango.

It seems the people who want to protest here wish to either misuse words or twist what others say to suit their views.

Bye!

[Alias]

Eduk -

I don’t think you understand English. I don’t agree. Trans women are not women, yellow is not blue, and I am not a mango.

It seems the people who want to protest here wish to either misuse words or twist what others say to suit their views.

Bye!

It's not a question of English; its a question of degree. Trans-women are women, Margaret Thatcher was a woman and so is Roseanne Barr, God help us. Mustard yellow and canary yellow are still yellow, and so is chartreuse, though there might some who call it green.
As to whether Burning Ghost is a mango, I'm happy to take his word that it this not the case.

[Consul]

The answer to 'are transwomen women' is that it depends. It depends on intended usage of woman. It depends on specific circumstance. Life is complex and has nuance.

Those who think that all transwomen are women need a definition of "woman" that doesn't rule out the womanhood of unfeminized MtF transsexuals who are physically/physiologically completely male (because they aren't taking female hormones and haven't undergone any surgical procedures).

By the way, as for the meaning of "transsexual":

* "transsexual: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth
Note: Transsexual people may or may not undergo surgery and hormone therapy to obtain a physical appearance typical of the gender they identify as."

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transsexual

* "transsexual: 1. A person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex.
‘a pre-operative male-to-female transsexual’
1.1 A person who has undergone treatment in order to acquire the physical characteristics of the opposite sex."

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/defin ... ranssexual

So there's a distinction between pre-operative or pre-feminization (pre-masculinization) transsexuals and post-operative or post-feminization (post-masculinization) transsexuals.
Correspondingly, the question as to whether transwomen are women can be divided into two questions:

1. Are pre-op/pre-fem MtF transsexuals women?
2. Are post-op/post-fem MtF transsexuals women?

And 2 can be divided into two further questions:

2.1 Are post-op/post-fem MtF transsexuals who are maximally feminized women?
2.2 Are post-op/post-fem MtF transsexuals who are not maximally feminized women? (e.g. hormone therapy + breast implants, but penis+testicles)

(By "maximal feminization" I mean "feminization through hormone therapy and genital surgery".)

[Consul]

2.2 Are post-op/post-fem MtF transsexuals who are not maximally feminized women? (e.g. hormone therapy + breast implants, but penis+testicles)

There are slang terms for feminized transsexuals who are taking female hormones, have female breasts (as a result of hormone-induced breast growth or/and breast implants) but still have male genitals: shemales /ladyboys. Are they women?

[Eduk]

Burning Ghost are you a protester here?
So Consul, what have you taken away from this discussion? If anything.

[Consul]

So Consul, what have you taken away from this discussion? If anything.

That there's no plausible argument for the womanhood of transwomen (manhood of transmen).
(Note that I'm talking about the existential status of transsexuals and not about their legal status.)

[Alias]

That there's no plausible argument for the womanhood of transwomen (manhood of transmen).
(Note that I'm talking about the existential status of transsexuals and not about their legal status.)

So, no change of position there. No change of position here.

If there ever comes a final, inarguable, definitive answer as to the correct designation of 0.3% of the US population,
what will be affected in what way? What philosophical or metaphysical situation will be altered, and in what way?

[Consul]

So, no change of position there. No change of position here.

No one here presented an actual argument for the view that transwomen are women.

[Eduk]

I personally presented at least two. Granted you ignored them but I did present them.

[Alias]

If there ever comes a final, inarguable, definitive answer as to the correct designation of 0.3% of the US population,
what will be affected in what way?
What philosophical or metaphysical situation will be altered, and in what way?

[shuzbot]

To say that Transwomen aren't women is essentialist, is it not? I always thought that was something we were supposed to avoid. Do you believe gender is a social construct? This argument is often made by Feminists. Cordelia Fine wrote a very interesting book on this called Delusions of Gender, arguing that neuroplasticity means there should be no significant differences in performance of tasks (I am, of course, greatly oversimplifying.) But if you do agree that gender is a social construct, then Transwomen are indeed women.

Even if you believe in a more biologically determinate answer, the technological sophistication of future procedures will make this less and less of a distinction, compared to out current clumsy methods. I also think that not enough consideration is given to Transgendered people in these discussions, their identities argued over like bargaining chips. If they choose to self-identify as women, that's good enough for me. Woman don't have to justify themselves as people, gay men don't have to justify themselves as men and have to fight over their identities. If they come out of the closet, that's it, they are out.

This is a good post that was missed on the subject.

The neuroplasticity argument lost much momentum when conclusively disproved by the tragic ruin of David Reimer's life, who was essentially a guinea pig for the false notion of limitless mental gender neutrality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfeGf4Ei7F0

OOh, thanks for the link, I will watch that. My post got missed cos I am new and the mods took a while to authorise it. This thread was moving fast at the time.

[Alias]

My post got missed cos I am new and the mods took a while to authorise it. This thread was moving fast at the time.

I did appreciate it, but had nothing of substance to add.
-- was more intent on trying to get a response on the significance of the "issue".