Are Transwomen Women?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Locked
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

Greta wrote: June 9th, 2018, 5:35 pm
Consul wrote: June 9th, 2018, 8:43 amOne more example: women's refuges
That's already been decided. Transwomen are generally not made welcome in those spaces. Are you unhappy with that situation?
The problem is that if mere self-identification as a woman gives you the legal status of a woman and the corresponding rights, then women-only institutions can get sued by transwomen for refusing entrance to or ejecting them.
Greta wrote: June 9th, 2018, 5:35 pmI don't feel qualified to answer that one - should a person who wants but cannot afford the surgery be denied the benefits of those who can? Should those who can afford the surgery be denied rights because others cannot?
In Germany, if a transsexual cannot afford the surgery, her/his health-insurance company will pay for it (because it is legally obliged to do so).
Greta wrote: June 9th, 2018, 5:35 pmShowers and toilets - those who identify should be given the doubt because the alternative of forcing transpeople into the toilets of their genetics would disastrous.
As for public shower rooms, I don't think women and particularly young girls can be expected to tolerate the sight of transwomen with a male body and male genitals there.
Greta wrote: June 9th, 2018, 5:35 pmAlso, one needs to be careful with such accusations at times. There are a number of reports of regular women being attacked in women's toilets because they were suspected of being trans. It reminds me of a workmate who was almost brought to tears at lunchtime when a well-meaning shop assistant asked her about her pregnancy.

There needs to be care taken with these kinds of witch hunts, not only to prevent pointless conflict as above, but especially when the targets are amongst the most disempowered and unfairly reviled in society, with one of the highest depression and suicide rates of any demographic.
Yes, and nothing I said implies that transsexuals don't deserve our protection and support.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Alias »

All the same, I would like to see some factual data on harm done to women and girls in Europe, Asia and America from attending mixed-sex baths and communal saunas, nudist beaches and camps. In such places, there are not merely a handful of trans-gendered females with male bodies; there are ordinary males of every age and sexual orientation, with fully functional genitalia.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14995
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Sy Borg »

Consul wrote: June 10th, 2018, 11:01 am
Greta wrote: June 9th, 2018, 5:35 pmThat's already been decided. Transwomen are generally not made welcome in those spaces. Are you unhappy with that situation?
The problem is that if mere self-identification as a woman gives you the legal status of a woman and the corresponding rights, then women-only institutions can get sued by transwomen for refusing entrance to or ejecting them.
So what? Are you expecting a phalanx of law suits? A trans would not win such a case and then the precedent would be set. Can you provide any more potential slippery slopes?

Consul wrote:
Greta wrote: June 9th, 2018, 5:35 pmI don't feel qualified to answer that one - should a person who wants but cannot afford the surgery be denied the benefits of those who can? Should those who can afford the surgery be denied rights because others cannot?
In Germany, if a transsexual cannot afford the surgery, her/his health-insurance company will pay for it (because it is legally obliged to do so).
Okay, what if the person has a heart defect and cannot undergo surgery? Should that person be punished for it?

Consul wrote:
Greta wrote: June 9th, 2018, 5:35 pmShowers and toilets - those who identify should be given the doubt because the alternative of forcing transpeople into the toilets of their genetics would disastrous.
As for public shower rooms, I don't think women and particularly young girls can be expected to tolerate the sight of transwomen with a male body and male genitals there.
What of interesexed people with androgen sensitivity - with both a malformed penis and vagina? We cannot tolerate girls being exposed to such a person, right?
Consul wrote:
Greta wrote: June 9th, 2018, 5:35 pmAlso, one needs to be careful with such accusations at times. There are a number of reports of regular women being attacked in women's toilets because they were suspected of being trans. It reminds me of a workmate who was almost brought to tears at lunchtime when a well-meaning shop assistant asked her about her pregnancy.

There needs to be care taken with these kinds of witch hunts, not only to prevent pointless conflict as above, but especially when the targets are amongst the most disempowered and unfairly reviled in society, with one of the highest depression and suicide rates of any demographic.
Yes, and nothing I said implies that transsexuals don't deserve our protection and support.
You want to deny transwomen the chance to go to public toilets without risking abuse, humiliation, bashing, rape or assault.

Gratuitously and pointlessly exposing such people to intense dangers in what should be simple, everyday living is not "protection and support". I would have zero problem seeing a big, unconvincing transwoman in the Ladies' toilet (I probably would not notice the others), just as long as she relieves herself in the cubicle normally and leaving it clean and then gets on with her life. If anything, it would just make my day a little more interesting. I would much rather that situation than a dirty regular woman who leaves toilet paper or pads on the seat or floor.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Burning ghost »

This can all be cleared up quickly enough (Greta and Consul)

If someone wished to be treated like a woman, and this person was polite and considerate in stating such a wish, then I would expect you both to respect this wish. If they were to demand that they are in fact a woman (yet in appearance, and with physiobiological attributes that flew in the face of such a statement) the I would expect you both to say, “no, you are not a woman, but I respect your wish to be treated as a woman because that is how you feel.”

That said, you may wish to force the issue and ask why they would say such things and learn about their position. You may not agree with some of the viewpoints, just as you wouldn’t agree numerous things anyone might say.

I look at common curtesy as being applicable to everyone. If anyone feels the instance to continually push how they feel they should be treated at every given opportunity then I get deeply suspicious or simply assume a recent event made them more sensitive to any hint of an attitude. A awful lot of political discourse turns into one, or more parties, becomes more hypersensitized due to the political climate.

I’ve had numerous instances of people saying what I should and shouldn’t say. Recently I made some remark about ethnic diversity in creative writing and was roundly set upon even though my comments were non-specific and aimed at the broader area of stereotypical prejudice (not merely ethnicity) and focused on the choices of the writer.

I can laugh about it here because I am free to laugh about the hyperbole used and the hypersensitivity expressed. On the other forum it’s not worth the bother and may lead to me being banned due to mob mentality (or simply being painted as some racist bigot and therefore not getting the feedback I want based on my writing rather than some presumption of my moral sensibilities.

Greta -

If you claim that all transgenders going to the bathroom risk physical violence then you’re also conflating isolated incidents with the broader picture just as Consul is inflating the relevance of ... something somewhere? We all do it.

We live in a society where transgenders can come out and say “I don’t like being treated like this.” That is surely something to celebrate in and of itself.

Note: I have had people attack me for saying “transgenders” insisting that I should say “transgender people” ... the irony is it is they who insist that such terms are different not me. I assume the “people” to be a given just like when I say men and women I don’t get stick for not saying “men people” or “woman people”. That is the kind of hypersensitive nonsense spewed by some a we should certainly stand strong and say “no” to such nonsense and stick to the real social issues involved - the most blatant being how as a societal group of people we deal with and come to respect individual differences rather than shaming and/or acting with aggression toward the unknown. On the flip side those deemed as “other” (and we’ve all felt like this at one point or another in life) need to be bolder and to make themselves heard in a calm and measured manner not as a victim and not as singular representative of some disembodied group of “them”.

Understanding something about ignorance is the first step toward knowledge. Accepting your own ignorance is the first step toward becoming wise.

Note: I consider myself knowledgeable fool who is making an attempt to to be a little less stupid and foolish by tomorrow (I often fail at this task😜)
AKA badgerjelly
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Eduk »

I agree Burning Ghost, and attempted a similar, shorter, clearing up :)
One thing I would say is that the hypersensitivity seems to work both ways. The initial hypersensitivity to a benign comment and then the hypersensitivity to the hypersensitivity.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

"Women" is a culturally defined category and that category is subject to change as the culture changes.
It was not so long ago that women were called 'ladies' but that became rejected culturally.

Female is might be safer to say is a more 'objective' scientific category to which we might attach strict rules, but not 'woman'.

I think many men would suggest a person whom they would find it possible to have sex with at some point during their sexually active period. There are old women who would not do, but would have to qualify for 'women' since they were at some point in their lives sexually 'possible'.
For most men the existence of a penis, would not make it possible to be intimate with trans 'women', and that would be a disqualifier
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

Alias wrote: June 10th, 2018, 10:57 am
Consul wrote: June 10th, 2018, 10:25 amWhat you seem to forget is that "ciswomen" have rights too.
Special rights that other people don't have? Why?
Because most ciswomen want to have some women-only public places/spaces.
Alias wrote: June 10th, 2018, 10:57 amWho gave them these special rights?
People.
Alias wrote: June 10th, 2018, 10:57 amHave you still not grasped the concept of walls, doors and curtains?
Many changing rooms (locker rooms) in gyms, fitness centres and swimming baths, and many public shower rooms have no cubicles with a door or curtains.
Alias wrote: June 10th, 2018, 10:57 amAs an irrelevant aside, what's so horrific about a penis, anyway?
That's a red herring! Do you really think it's okay when girls see people with male genitals in shower rooms for women? It may be a very disturbing experience for them. Would you really just tell them: "Come on, girls, it's just a penis!"
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

Alias wrote: June 10th, 2018, 6:29 pmAll the same, I would like to see some factual data on harm done to women and girls in Europe, Asia and America from attending mixed-sex baths and communal saunas, nudist beaches and camps. In such places, there are not merely a handful of trans-gendered females with male bodies; there are ordinary males of every age and sexual orientation, with fully functional genitalia.
There's a relevant difference between mixed-sex public places/spaces and women-only (or men-only) ones. No woman or girl (knowingly) entering a mixed-sex sauna or nudist camp will be surprised or shocked about seeing naked men or boys there.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Burning ghost »

Consul wrote: June 11th, 2018, 11:51 am
Alias wrote: June 10th, 2018, 6:29 pmAll the same, I would like to see some factual data on harm done to women and girls in Europe, Asia and America from attending mixed-sex baths and communal saunas, nudist beaches and camps. In such places, there are not merely a handful of trans-gendered females with male bodies; there are ordinary males of every age and sexual orientation, with fully functional genitalia.
There's a relevant difference between mixed-sex public places/spaces and women-only (or men-only) ones. No woman or girl (knowingly) entering a mixed-sex sauna or nudist camp will be surprised or shocked about seeing naked men or boys there.
So Alias wants one room for all more boundaries, no more division, just one public toilet for all and mixed changing rooms.

Can you imagine this with teenage boys and girls?

Someone needs a reality check perhaps. Consul correct here. We’re talking about a very select community here. We either have no divisions or some common divisions. If not we’ll end up living in a world where every building is a toilet to suit some select groups idea of personal privacy.

Many women are happy and comfortable to expose their bodies around gay men and I imagine many women would be the same about transgender women (if they knew them.) I imagine life for a teenage gay boy may be quite a difficulty! At that age arousal ca happen at the slightest hint of something you deem sexual and then everyone can see what you’re thinking.

Let us not forget the embarrassing stage of puberty where many changes are happening.
AKA badgerjelly
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Eduk »

Some cultures manage to get by naked all the time (or mostly). I assume those cultures also had/have teenagers.
Also it's better to ask Alias what they want rather than to tell them, it doesn't help the point you are trying to make.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Burning ghost »

Eduk wrote: June 11th, 2018, 12:27 pm Some cultures manage to get by naked all the time (or mostly). I assume those cultures also had/have teenagers.
Also it's better to ask Alias what they want rather than to tell them, it doesn't help the point you are trying to make.
I see people clutching at straws.

In some cultures people eat other people. In some cultures people are sentenced to death. In some cultures child brides are acceptable. Point being the minority view will not win out over popular opinion (whether you deem it right or wrong.)

If doing something that disturbs most people don’t do it or don’t complain when your actions cause a commotion. It is illegal to walk around naked and until the law says otherwise this is a moot point.

Just following through the argument from Alias. Suggesting that mixed areas is the counter position is making a stand for them. If not the argument is completely empty and made purely to nitpick rather than meet up with the reality of the world and how the sexes interact in society (setting aside one or two uncommon examples.)
AKA badgerjelly
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Eduk »

It would also be better to have a small amount of humility, you don't have to know the answer to everything. Insulting people is rarely going to make for a productive discussion and I fail to see what you have to gain by an unproductive argument? I mean surely you don't imagine I am sitting here flummoxed by your logic? What is the point?
Unknown means unknown.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Alias »

Consul wrote: June 11th, 2018, 11:43 am Many changing rooms (locker rooms) in gyms, fitness centres and swimming baths, and many public shower rooms have no cubicles with a door or curtains.
And it's easier to swab-test all the users than to put up a few rods?
[As an irrelevant aside, what's so horrific about a penis, anyway?]
That's a red herring!
In light of how much you've harping on it, pale pink, at best.
Do you really think it's okay when girls see people with male genitals in shower rooms for women? It may be a very disturbing experience for them. Would you really just tell them: "Come on, girls, it's just a penis!"
I would say that all of freak-out-over-trivia - while - shrugging-off-atrocities America.
If it should happen once in a blue moon - keeping in mind how few people identify as trans-women in the first place, how even fewer with male genitalia would choose to display them in public showers and how public bath etiquette generally require the users to keep their eyes off one another's mid-portions - that a woman might catch a glimpse such an organ... well, at least she won't die of shock on her wedding night.
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Consul »

Greta wrote: June 10th, 2018, 6:43 pm
Consul wrote: June 10th, 2018, 11:01 amThe problem is that if mere self-identification as a woman gives you the legal status of a woman and the corresponding rights, then women-only institutions can get sued by transwomen for refusing entrance to or ejecting them.
So what? Are you expecting a phalanx of law suits? A trans would not win such a case and then the precedent would be set.
Why would a transwoman not win such as case when she is legally no different from a ciswoman?
Greta wrote: June 10th, 2018, 6:43 pm
Consul wrote: June 10th, 2018, 11:01 amIn Germany, if a transsexual cannot afford the surgery, her/his health-insurance company will pay for it (because it is legally obliged to do so).
Okay, what if the person has a heart defect and cannot undergo surgery? Should that person be punished for it?
Is the exclusion of transwomen with male genitals from certain public places for women a form of punishment?
Greta wrote: June 10th, 2018, 6:43 pm
Consul wrote: June 10th, 2018, 11:01 amAs for public shower rooms, I don't think women and particularly young girls can be expected to tolerate the sight of transwomen with a male body and male genitals there.
What of interesexed people with androgen sensitivity - with both a malformed penis and vagina? We cannot tolerate girls being exposed to such a person, right?
Keeping on a piece of clothing may be a good idea in this case—and also in the case of transwomen who otherwise look female but still have male genitals. However, hiding a package behind bikini briefs—such that it becomes (virtually) invisible—is pretty difficult. (No, I haven't tried it myself.)
Greta wrote: June 10th, 2018, 6:43 pmYou want to deny transwomen the chance to go to public toilets without risking abuse, humiliation, bashing, rape or assault.
Gratuitously and pointlessly exposing such people to intense dangers in what should be simple, everyday living is not "protection and support". I would have zero problem seeing a big, unconvincing transwoman in the Ladies' toilet (I probably would not notice the others), just as long as she relieves herself in the cubicle normally and leaving it clean and then gets on with her life. If anything, it would just make my day a little more interesting. I would much rather that situation than a dirty regular woman who leaves toilet paper or pads on the seat or floor.
I haven't yet passed a final judgment. The shower-room or changing-room situation is actually more problematic than the toilet situation, where people don't undress or stand around naked in front of others.

There is one group of transwomen at least that is quite unproblematic with regard to women-only places such as restrooms and shower-rooms, namely those who underwent genital surgery. There really is no good reason to exclude a post-operative transwoman with female breasts and a vagina from these places. And as for women's restrooms at least, there is no good reason either to exclude a hormonally feminized transwoman from these places who looks and dresses like a woman but lacks a vagina.

But as far as women-only places are concerned where people undress and see each other naked (or half-naked at least), the group of those transwomen who are either wholly physically unfeminized (and hence physically indistinguishable from non-TS men) or only partly physically feminized (female face, skin, muscles, voice, breasts, but still male genitals) is a real problem. In my opinion, the former should be excluded from those places. The latter needn't be excluded if they don't undress completely and somehow manage to hide their male genitals.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Locked

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021