Are Transwomen Women?

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Greta
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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Greta » June 11th, 2018, 5:54 pm

Consul wrote:
June 11th, 2018, 3:28 pm
Greta wrote:
June 10th, 2018, 6:43 pm
So what? Are you expecting a phalanx of law suits? A trans would not win such a case and then the precedent would be set.
Why would a transwoman not win such as case when she is legally no different from a ciswoman?
Because the community is divided on the issue, whereas no one has a problem with normal women going to Ladies' public toilets. The recent public debates have made clear that many people believe that any problems a transwoman has are entirely her own fault.
Consul wrote:
Greta wrote:
June 10th, 2018, 6:43 pm
Okay, what if the person has a heart defect and cannot undergo surgery? Should that person be punished for it?
Is the exclusion of transwomen with male genitals from certain public places for women a form of punishment?
Of course. They have a few choices - to do their business in their underpants, to go to the Ladies' and perhaps be embarrassed and embarrassing or go to the Men's toilets and be abused, beaten up or killed.
Consul wrote:
Greta wrote:
June 10th, 2018, 6:43 pm
What of interesexed people with androgen sensitivity - with both a malformed penis and vagina? We cannot tolerate girls being exposed to such a person, right?
Keeping on a piece of clothing may be a good idea in this case—and also in the case of transwomen who otherwise look female but still have male genitals. However, hiding a package behind bikini briefs—such that it becomes (virtually) invisible—is pretty difficult. (No, I haven't tried it myself.)
You do realise that female toilets do not have urination troughs, don't you? :lol: Do you regularly flash your meat n' vegs in public toilets away from the trough? If so, may I suggest it's a problematic thing to do, no matter what one's genital configuration!
Consul wrote:
Greta wrote:
June 10th, 2018, 6:43 pm
You want to deny transwomen the chance to go to public toilets without risking abuse, humiliation, bashing, rape or assault.
Gratuitously and pointlessly exposing such people to intense dangers in what should be simple, everyday living is not "protection and support". I would have zero problem seeing a big, unconvincing transwoman in the Ladies' toilet (I probably would not notice the others), just as long as she relieves herself in the cubicle normally and leaving it clean and then gets on with her life. If anything, it would just make my day a little more interesting. I would much rather that situation than a dirty regular woman who leaves toilet paper or pads on the seat or floor.
I haven't yet passed a final judgment. The shower-room or changing-room situation is actually more problematic than the toilet situation, where people don't undress or stand around naked in front of others.

There is one group of transwomen at least that is quite unproblematic with regard to women-only places such as restrooms and shower-rooms, namely those who underwent genital surgery. There really is no good reason to exclude a post-operative transwoman with female breasts and a vagina from these places. And as for women's restrooms at least, there is no good reason either to exclude a hormonally feminized transwoman from these places who looks and dresses like a woman but lacks a vagina.

But as far as women-only places are concerned where people undress and see each other naked (or half-naked at least), the group of those transwomen who are either wholly physically unfeminized (and hence physically indistinguishable from non-TS men) or only partly physically feminized (female face, skin, muscles, voice, breasts, but still male genitals) is a real problem. In my opinion, the former should be excluded from those places. The latter needn't be excluded if they don't undress completely and somehow manage to hide their male genitals.
With due respect, I think my assessment matters more than yours because I am personally affected - or unaffected as the case my be - by transwomen using women's restrooms.

I personally think that there needs to be more rigorous gatekeeping by assessing psychiatrists as regards approving treatment for transsexuals in preventing big, boofy men with gender issues from ruining their lives with a damaging life change if they have no hope of passing as female in public. You'd think there might be a better way to deal with their gender disturbance but I suppose that at this stage psychotherapy has no advanced to that point. Whatever internal frission is present for masculine men who see themselves as feminine, it's impossible to imagine the changeover improving their lives given the hostility of elements of society towards them. It looks like a recipe for suicide.

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Burning ghost » June 11th, 2018, 11:08 pm

Eduk wrote:
June 11th, 2018, 2:40 pm
It would also be better to have a small amount of humility, you don't have to know the answer to everything. Insulting people is rarely going to make for a productive discussion and I fail to see what you have to gain by an unproductive argument? I mean surely you don't imagine I am sitting here flummoxed by your logic? What is the point?
Humility would mean you’d have to admit what you said was pointless (which it was.)

Alias -

I would like to see some factual data showing that people can look at most trangenders and at face value assume they are the sex they claim they feel they are.

People react to what they don’t see everyday with instinctive suspicion. When I see a man walking down the street with heavy stubble, wearing a dress I assume it is part of some charity event or fancy dress party. If he was to walk into the ladies toilets I’d definitely expect people to react. This is because it is out of the ordinary. Just like if I was to great you, a stranger, by patting you hard on the chest three times and saying “Wee, wee ,weee!” as I did so, you’d react with disbelief and maybe even with hostility.

Should we look for evidence about how the colour yellow offends some people too and ask for the colour to be banned from public display? Or how most of us don’t like being punched in the face, but for the sake of the few that do we should punch people in the face when we great them?

Yes, hyperbole. I know. When you take a reasonable question and escalate it to this point sometimes making exaggerations helps reveal the ideas you are pushing as empty.

People have a greater awareness of transgenderism now so job done. It is quite likely that when someone is I the toilet people may just be more likely to assume they’re there to pee or crap rather than cause emotional distress.
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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Alias » June 11th, 2018, 11:31 pm

Burning ghost wrote:
June 11th, 2018, 11:08 pm
Alias -

I would like to see some factual data showing that people can look at most trangenders and at face value assume they are the sex they claim they feel they are.
Why?
People can see whatever they want to see. A whole lot of people could - and maybe still can - look at an old, spiteful, spoiled toddler and believe he's leader the of the free world. What people choose to see, or refuse to see, is not my issue.
When I see a man walking down the street with heavy stubble, wearing a dress
Does this happen a lot? 'Cos, mostly, cross-dressers are fastidious about such details as hair-removal.
If he was to walk into the ladies toilets I’d definitely expect people to react.
They might, if they noticed. I don't scrutinize other users of public facilities; most users don't.
if I was to great you, a stranger, by patting you hard on the chest three times and saying “Wee, wee ,weee!” as I did so, you’d react with disbelief and maybe even with hostility.
I might be tempted to break your arm, but probably wouldn't, unless I was already in a bad mood.

Are you comparing someone walking down the street, minding their own business, or going into a toilet, doing their business, to someone physically assaulting strangers?
Should we look for evidence about how the colour yellow offends some people too and ask for the colour to be banned from public display? Or how most of us don’t like being punched in the face, but for the sake of the few that do we should punch people in the face when we great them?
Is this apropos of anything in the foregoing discussion?
People have a greater awareness of transgenderism now so job done.

Whose job? What's done? Why are you coming at me with this?

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Burning ghost » June 12th, 2018, 12:35 am

And there you have it.

Doesn’t anyone see why I see this as comical? Asking questions obviously oblivious to what they mean and making statements equally obviously to what they mean.

I don’t even need to mock you, you’re doing it yourself. Thanks for saving me the bother.
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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Eduk » June 12th, 2018, 2:29 am

BG it was pointless, but it didn't have to be.

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Greta » June 12th, 2018, 6:46 pm

Eduk wrote:
June 12th, 2018, 2:29 am
BG it was pointless, but it didn't have to be.
Yes, I was with Alias.

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Newme » July 7th, 2018, 9:43 pm

Name Is Unnecessary wrote:
May 31st, 2018, 3:06 pm
There are genetic, cerebral, biological and blah-blah other gender criteria. Genetically gender is male, but cerebrally it is female for example. This is actually a high school material and I can tell, because I learnt it in high school.

I see you are coming from the genetic criteria, but as it turns out genes matter least, seemingly less than raising environment and even personality forming.
I agree that environmental influences are usually stronger than genetic influences. It’s kind of apparant when you compare the number of healthy newborns to healthy adults. Also, for genes to be expressed or not requires environmental stimuli (ie diet, exercise, stress, medications, emotion/mind-body placebo effect, etc).

High school books are often incorrect. My son’s AP Psychology book quoted a long-since discredited study as if it were legit. They tried to prove a certain type of sexual deviation (homosexuality) is inborn by pointing to a study that showed the different brains of those with that practiced homosexuality, but it had been discredited because the cadavers with died of AIDS which affects brains.

Maybe you meant a person’s delusion can be that they feel the opposite sex - which is emotional reasoning fallacy, but you did use the term, “cerebrally.” It is incorrect to claim that a person’s brain can be the opposite sex. Plenty of research has proven that male brains are different think than female brains...

“The two hemispheres of a woman’s brain talk to each other more than a man’s do. In a 2014 study, University of Pennsylvania researchers imaged the brains of 428 male and 521 female youths — an uncharacteristically huge sample — and found that the females’ brains consistently showed more strongly coordinated activity between hemispheres, while the males’ brain activity was more tightly coordinated within local brain regions. This finding, a confirmation of results in smaller studies published earlier, tracks closely with others’ observations that the corpus callosum-— the white-matter cable that crosses and connects the hemispheres — is bigger in women than in men and that women’s brains tend to be more bilaterally symmetrical than men’s.
Many of these cognitive differences appear quite early in life. ‘You see sex differences in spatial-visualization ability in 2- and 3-month-old infants.’”

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring ... erent.html

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Newme » July 7th, 2018, 9:57 pm

Just because someone believes they are other than they are doesn’t mean it is. An anorexic deathly skinny person is not fat despite them believing they are fat.

One of the easy ways I can tell if a person thinks for themselves or not, is if they see through or buy this nonsense that all society must honor a special type of delusion. I also see it as cruel because mentally ill delusional people can’t see clearly and depend on others to clarify reality, but some cruely don’t help them but go along with their irrational imaginings. I wonder if they are laughing like they would to a schizophrenic, “Ha ha ha! Yes you’re right - you can fly!! Now prove it to everyone and jump off the bridge!!” How sick and cruel to go along with others delusions when one knows better.

Those who try (in vain) to change their sex, regret it and often suffer more mental illness, including suicide - even when those around them were supporting their delusions. Again, it’s cruel to knowingly support delusions of people who struggle with reality.

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Greta » July 7th, 2018, 11:55 pm

Indeed. There is no such thing as diversity and we are all exactly the same until we are conditioned by life, right? The idea of people mentally being between genders? Unthinkable!

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Newme » July 8th, 2018, 1:46 pm

Greta wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 11:55 pm
Indeed. There is no such thing as diversity and we are all exactly the same until we are conditioned by life, right? The idea of people mentally being between genders? Unthinkable!
What does it mean to “mentally be between genders”?
When a mom plays sports with her son, does that mean she’s transgender?
When a dad fixes his daughter’s hair is he transgender?
Of course they’re not transgender. Transgender implies a denial of one’s biological reality.

Your response reminds me of logical fallacies like:
  • Jumping to conclusions
    Appeal to emotion (fav of the homosexual agenda)
    Bandwagon fallacy (another fav ^)
    Red Herring &/or
    Strawman
    Hasty generalization
Ultimately the burden of proof is the biggest logical fallacy because it’s impossible to prove a male is a female (or visa versa) when anatomical and neurological facts are so obviously against it. All it does is make the person asserting it look like they struggle with reality.

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by LuckyR » July 8th, 2018, 4:37 pm

Newme wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 1:46 pm
Greta wrote:
July 7th, 2018, 11:55 pm
Indeed. There is no such thing as diversity and we are all exactly the same until we are conditioned by life, right? The idea of people mentally being between genders? Unthinkable!
What does it mean to “mentally be between genders”?
When a mom plays sports with her son, does that mean she’s transgender?
When a dad fixes his daughter’s hair is he transgender?
Of course they’re not transgender. Transgender implies a denial of one’s biological reality.

Your response reminds me of logical fallacies like:
  • Jumping to conclusions
    Appeal to emotion (fav of the homosexual agenda)
    Bandwagon fallacy (another fav ^)
    Red Herring &/or
    Strawman
    Hasty generalization
Ultimately the burden of proof is the biggest logical fallacy because it’s impossible to prove a male is a female (or visa versa) when anatomical and neurological facts are so obviously against it. All it does is make the person asserting it look like they struggle with reality.
I suppose this post works if life is very black and white to you (which it tends to be online). However, for most folks here in Real Life, not only does a gray area exist, but many would argue that the majority of like exists in gray areas.

I'll give you an example. Let's say I feel my nose is too big for my face. You could point out that it is only in the 85th% of nose size for adults, or you could point out that it works perfectly fine for a nose and I should quit whining about it, or that it is up to me to "prove" that my nose is too big. But guess what? It is perfectly ethical for me to make that determination and seek out a plastic surgeon to remake my nose to my satisfaction, no big proofs or explanations required, no one accuses me of denying my nasal reality.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Eduk » July 8th, 2018, 6:42 pm

It is amusing, to me, that one person using the 'fact' that women's brains are different to men's states this proves whatever it is they are against but another person uses the 'fact' that women's brains cannot be deferentiated, scientifically, from men's brains to prove whatever it is they are against. Both seem to have little to no real world experience with anyone transgender and neither appear to be neurologists and neither seem able to actually say what it is that they are actually against (at least clearly).

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Greta » July 8th, 2018, 7:06 pm

I'm not going to be bothered looking it up again because I'm bored after all these years or arguing about obvious things to correct problematic claims by those who value the mythic over the human. It never seems to end well so maybe even I can learn? (Yes, that does seem unlikely but hope springs eternal).

Still, but I have read more than once that transpeople have brains that are structurally more similar to their target gender. From memory, it's the hypothalmus. And from there I'll go looking for some fun metaphysics or broad ideas rather than the surface froth and bubble of social issues.

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Newme » July 8th, 2018, 7:59 pm

LuckyR wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 4:37 pm
Newme wrote:
July 8th, 2018, 1:46 pm

What does it mean to “mentally be between genders”?
When a mom plays sports with her son, does that mean she’s transgender?
When a dad fixes his daughter’s hair is he transgender?
Of course they’re not transgender. Transgender implies a denial of one’s biological reality.

Your response reminds me of logical fallacies like:
  • Jumping to conclusions
    Appeal to emotion (fav of the homosexual agenda)
    Bandwagon fallacy (another fav ^)
    Red Herring &/or
    Strawman
    Hasty generalization
Ultimately the burden of proof is the biggest logical fallacy because it’s impossible to prove a male is a female (or visa versa) when anatomical and neurological facts are so obviously against it. All it does is make the person asserting it look like they struggle with reality.
I suppose this post works if life is very black and white to you (which it tends to be online). However, for most folks here in Real Life, not only does a gray area exist, but many would argue that the majority of like exists in gray areas.

I'll give you an example. Let's say I feel my nose is too big for my face. You could point out that it is only in the 85th% of nose size for adults, or you could point out that it works perfectly fine for a nose and I should quit whining about it, or that it is up to me to "prove" that my nose is too big. But guess what? It is perfectly ethical for me to make that determination and seek out a plastic surgeon to remake my nose to my satisfaction, no big proofs or explanations required, no one accuses me of denying my nasal reality.
Anatomy and neurology are not based on appeal to emotions.
You can feel all you want - that doesn’t change your anatomy.

Image

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Re: Are Transwomen Women?

Post by Newme » July 8th, 2018, 8:03 pm

Based on some comments, I may need to explain the above pictures.
The top picture is of female reproductive organs.
The bottom picture is of male reproductive organs.
Notice they are different. :)

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