What are you living for?

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-1-
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Re: What are you living for?

Post by -1- » June 19th, 2018, 4:32 am

Belindi wrote:
June 19th, 2018, 4:00 am
Do you agree that this psychoanalytic insight helps in a practical way? Your other description, where you describe the cause of unworthiness feelings as like the work of a badly trained accountant, may indicate a cognitive behavioural therapeutic remedy.
I've also read Greta's descriptions on the cause of feeling unworthy in these stories (abridged for the sake of purposing them here):

- the professional knife sharpener who cuts himself every day

- the grocer who can't build a decent-looking pyramid of cans of green peas

- the toilet cleaner genius, who sees green pee for the first time in his life

- the doctor whose medicine cabinet can't be locked under key

- the illiterate newspaper boy who can't cry out the headlines

- the bus driver with absolutely no sense of directions

- the stinkfoot athlete who can never get a meal big enough to completely quell his appetite and hunger

- the financial adviser who advises all his clients to withdraw all their monies and sew them up in their mattress

- the gynecologist who is a pro-lifer anti-abortion crusader

- my grandmother who wanted to be nothing else ever in life but to be the no. 6 streetcar during rush hour.
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Re: What are you living for?

Post by chewybrian » June 19th, 2018, 9:31 am

Greta wrote:
June 18th, 2018, 10:38 pm
As far as I can tell, the depressed tend to mentally apply to themselves the value judgements of their worst bullies in youth. Why? A response to undiagnosed PTSD. It's a worst case scenario constantly rerun in the mind - a reflexive desensitisation done so that if one is attacked similarly again it will be less of a shock (a physical example here would be an sexually abused girl who becomes a prostitute - she is emotionally inoculating herself with "controlled doses" so she will never again feel that same shock, fear, shame and general horror.

In physical terms, the mental stance it's akin to a defensive huddle - a small target with only the "hard shell" exposed like a porcupine curled into a ball. Trouble is, the soft and vulnerable part tucked away inside is where the good things can come in. These are all attempts to overcome suffering and each results in desensitisation resulting in relative emotional flatlining.

It does seem that decreased emotional volatility lied ahead, one way or another.
Your take on depression is a far cry from the typical American diagnosis of imbalances requiring chemical treatment. From my experience, a LOT of depressed people are married to the genetic/chemical explanation, perhaps because they feel it absolves them of responsibility for their situation. I think they are missing the flip side of that, which is that they might have control over the future of their depression--if they are the cause, then they are the cure!

I don't think you are saying the bully is the full cause of depression, and not that prostitution is a possible cure. Decreased volatility is fine if you hover around 7 or 8 of 10, but not a winner if you flat-line at 2 or 3.

I am curious what you think are the biggest causes of and best cures for depression. Also, would you agree that people are very resistant to acknowledge either causes or cures, which often hinders their progress? If so, why? Is it our cultural bias toward commercial answers to problems, running from blame, fear of success or accountability, or something else?

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by ThomasHobbes » June 19th, 2018, 1:40 pm

-1- wrote:
June 19th, 2018, 4:23 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 2:14 pm
Image
"Philosophy... is to question that which we already know,
Religion... is a light in the fog."

"Philosophy...is a walk on a slippery rock,
Religion... is a smile on a dog."

-Edie Brickell.
Nah.

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by ThomasHobbes » June 19th, 2018, 1:41 pm

Religion is hate.
A dog's smile is love.

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by ReasonMadeFlesh » June 19th, 2018, 3:13 pm

-1- wrote:
June 19th, 2018, 4:11 am
What am I living for? For the daily challenge of earning a little joy in life. For seeing the sunshine, for hearing the birds sing, for drinking fresh, crystal clear water, for deeply inhaling pure air. For running my fingers through my hair, for using a hygienic paper that does not tear, does not scratch, yet removes the ... erm residue. For sitting down to a heaping serving of richly favoured morning cup of coffee, in my housecoat, armed with the morning paper in one hand, and a sconce in the other.

I live for the love of mankind, for the love of birds, trees, dogs, tapeworms and Bacillii Fasciitis Necrotismus. I live for my self-satisfying attempt to make the world a better place. I live for beauty, justice, and balance. I live for I enjoy living. for the joy of life. And that is a darn good arrangement.
https://youtu.be/YaG5SAw1n0c
-1- wrote:
June 19th, 2018, 4:23 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
June 15th, 2018, 2:14 pm
Image
"Philosophy... is to question that which we already know,
Religion... is a light in the fog."

"Philosophy...is a walk on a slippery rock,
Religion... is a smile on a dog."

-Edie Brickell.
That poem is pish and is about as mince as your personality, tho' not quite, for it only exists as an abstract object in some far-off Platonic hell. Avast ye cat spawn! And begone into the shadows from whence you came!
"A philosopher who does not take part in discussions is like a boxer who never goes into the ring." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by Greta » June 19th, 2018, 5:40 pm

ReasonMadeFlesh has been banned.

Calling people a f@ggot on this forum is not on - especially those who have already earned several warnings for abusiveness in a short time.

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by Greta » June 19th, 2018, 6:20 pm

chewybrian wrote:
June 19th, 2018, 9:31 am
Greta wrote:
June 18th, 2018, 10:38 pm
As far as I can tell, the depressed tend to mentally apply to themselves the value judgements of their worst bullies in youth. Why? A response to undiagnosed PTSD. It's a worst case scenario constantly rerun in the mind - a reflexive desensitisation done so that if one is attacked similarly again it will be less of a shock (a physical example here would be an sexually abused girl who becomes a prostitute - she is emotionally inoculating herself with "controlled doses" so she will never again feel that same shock, fear, shame and general horror.

In physical terms, the mental stance it's akin to a defensive huddle - a small target with only the "hard shell" exposed like a porcupine curled into a ball. Trouble is, the soft and vulnerable part tucked away inside is where the good things can come in. These are all attempts to overcome suffering and each results in desensitisation resulting in relative emotional flatlining.

It does seem that decreased emotional volatility lied ahead, one way or another.
Your take on depression is a far cry from the typical American diagnosis of imbalances requiring chemical treatment. From my experience, a LOT of depressed people are married to the genetic/chemical explanation, perhaps because they feel it absolves them of responsibility for their situation. I think they are missing the flip side of that, which is that they might have control over the future of their depression--if they are the cause, then they are the cure!

I don't think you are saying the bully is the full cause of depression, and not that prostitution is a possible cure. Decreased volatility is fine if you hover around 7 or 8 of 10, but not a winner if you flat-line at 2 or 3.

I am curious what you think are the biggest causes of and best cures for depression. Also, would you agree that people are very resistant to acknowledge either causes or cures, which often hinders their progress? If so, why? Is it our cultural bias toward commercial answers to problems, running from blame, fear of success or accountability, or something else?
Yes, no doubt some people have intrinsic chemical imbalances in their brains, and others develop them from events. Based on the law of averages and expert analyses, some unlucky individuals simply have a physical issue with their brains from the start, or will suffer illness or injury.

Generally sadness and grief - which are not "depression" as such but part of a continuum of downbeat emotions in which depression is an extreme form - are evolved responses that tend to create space or garner support or sympathy for affected individuals. Sometimes we need time alone to sort ourselves out, not feeling up to the hurly burly. Or we may need to give distress signals so that others don't expect us to behave and achieve normally. In a sense it's expectation control. Then there is simply the cry of help due to an inability to cope at the time.

However, when I observe the self-flagellation involved with both my own experiences and in others, I hear echoes of past hurts and attacks, with the associated dynamic of emotional desensitisation as I described above. In the case of an abused girl becoming pointlessly promiscuous or working as a prostitute later in her teens, the desensitisation is not a cure but a band-aid - dealing with the pain as it is now rather than a long term solution; incident handling rather than problem solving.

I don't have any answers as to cures. Maybe care about ourselves and our welfare a little less? Perhaps people would be a little more cheery if they never let themselves forget that, in the Earth's time scales, within a blink of an eye we and everyone and everything that we know and love will die or be destroyed, reduced to minerals and goo, and then reformed into something or someone else? :)

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by Belindi » June 20th, 2018, 4:30 am

There is a significant historical correlation between insupportably stressful life and mental illness resulting in suicide By "stressful" I am thinking of unremitting overwork .

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by Burning ghost » June 20th, 2018, 5:58 am

Banned? I’d only just foed him for making dozens of inane posts (I’d rather people were banned for the right reasons.)

;)
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Re: What are you living for?

Post by Felix » June 20th, 2018, 6:04 am

Perhaps people would be a little more cheery if they never let themselves forget that, in the Earth's time scales, within a blink of an eye we and everyone and everything that we know and love will die or be destroyed, reduced to minerals and goo, and then reformed into something or someone else?
Oh yes, that is so very cheerful, Greta, next time I'm feeling down, I'll just remember your words, it'll surely bring me out of my funk in no time at all. Thank you so much! 8)
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by Felix » June 20th, 2018, 6:06 am

Burning Ghost: I’d rather people were banned for the right reasons.
Yeah, like his avatar picture, that's reason enough.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by chewybrian » June 20th, 2018, 6:56 am

Greta wrote:
June 19th, 2018, 6:20 pm
Yes, no doubt some people have intrinsic chemical imbalances in their brains, and others develop them from events. Based on the law of averages and expert analyses, some unlucky individuals simply have a physical issue with their brains from the start, or will suffer illness or injury.

Generally sadness and grief - which are not "depression" as such but part of a continuum of downbeat emotions in which depression is an extreme form - are evolved responses that tend to create space or garner support or sympathy for affected individuals. Sometimes we need time alone to sort ourselves out, not feeling up to the hurly burly. Or we may need to give distress signals so that others don't expect us to behave and achieve normally. In a sense it's expectation control. Then there is simply the cry of help due to an inability to cope at the time.

However, when I observe the self-flagellation involved with both my own experiences and in others, I hear echoes of past hurts and attacks, with the associated dynamic of emotional desensitisation as I described above. In the case of an abused girl becoming pointlessly promiscuous or working as a prostitute later in her teens, the desensitisation is not a cure but a band-aid - dealing with the pain as it is now rather than a long term solution; incident handling rather than problem solving.

I don't have any answers as to cures. Maybe care about ourselves and our welfare a little less? Perhaps people would be a little more cheery if they never let themselves forget that, in the Earth's time scales, within a blink of an eye we and everyone and everything that we know and love will die or be destroyed, reduced to minerals and goo, and then reformed into something or someone else? :)
That part about an attempt to garner support--if no support arrives, it seems like it could become self-reinforcing and lead to severe depression. I think depressed people selfishly expect the world to be able to see how much they are suffering, but most other people are actually rather immune to the signals. The depressed person sends out ever stronger, yet still too subtle signals, getting ever more distressed that others are not picking up on them. I know 'selfish' sounds like a harsh way to describe a depressed person. But, that incorrect assessment of the world and their place in it is a huge element of the problem, and they would ironically be happier, as you say, if they could realize they matter less, as expectations could be more easily met at that point.

Leaving out the small percentage of people with serious wiring problems, I think our American lifestyles lead to depression, much as they lead to heart disease and diabetes. We reinforce the physical and mental causes of depression in many ways. We put people in jobs that are repetitive and non-rewarding (see Marx), keep them out of the sun, enable them to avoid exercise, offer them mostly poor food choices. Our culture often values material things over people, and makes people the means rather than the ends. Perhaps most troubling is the unrealistic expectations we put in peoples' minds from an early age, through television and other means. Top it off with the fact that depression sufferers here are likely to be surrounded by enablers who will reinforce the problems, or other depressed or self-absorbed people. You can 'inherit' depression, for sure.

As with heart disease and diabetes, the cures which would probably work best for most people are not medicine. Medicine alone may only mask the symptoms while allowing the causes to continue their work underground. It puts the disease in partial remission without curing it. It is the perfect answer for the physician who wants a speedy, lawsuit-resistant answer that allows him to ring the register each time the prescription must be renewed. And, it allows the sufferer the comfort of avoiding responsibility for either causing or needing to work to cure their ailment.

Real cures for depression would be found in psychotherapy, in really examining the patient's contribution to their suffering and their ability to contribute to the cure. They need to reset their expectations of the world and their place in it to a more rational level to avoid undue disappointment. If I think I should be a 9 and I think I am a 2, then the gap seems too big to overcome. If I realize that maybe I'm really a 4, and it's OK to be a 6, then I might have some hope of reaching my goal. Add exercise, a better diet, owning pets, getting outside, forming connections to others (even helping them instead of worrying about yourself)... These things, I think, would alleviate the symptoms for most people, and make their lives and the lives of those around them better in the process.

I'm not saying medicine is useless or that nobody needs it. I'm only saying it should rarely be the first answer, and most people would be better off with lifestyle and behavior changes. It's terribly difficult for the depressed person to see that they may have caused their own depression, or that they have the power to cure it by their own will, but that is my take. Yes, I have been there and I know how hard it is, but this is the real path out for the long haul, and worth all the effort if you see it through.

Finally, it would help if we could remove the stigma from the problem. People can talk openly about diabetes or some other ailment, but they are likely to keep their depression to themselves, which is exactly what they don't need to do. How comforting would it be for them to talk to others openly about their experiences with depression? "I was depressed, and here is what worked for me, and here is what you need to watch out for at this point", etc.

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by Dachshund » June 20th, 2018, 9:50 am

Greta wrote:
June 19th, 2018, 6:20 pm
I don't have any answers as to cures
There is only one possible way that depression can ever be eradicated and that is through love.

Because it is true, I think, that love has the power to overcome any sickness/disorder that afflicts the mind (i.e. the consciousness) of man with suffering.

"Omnia vincit amor" is one of the most famous of all Latin expressions, and it is still popular today in the "altered" form "Amor vincit omnia" There are countless American kids are running about right now with the later phrase tattooed on some part of their body; it basically translates as "Love conquers all" in English.

They're quite close to the truthThough I speak with the tongues of men and of angels ( these kids) but no cigar, I'm afraid.

If you change the word Amor to Caritas, then then you've got it right.

Briefly, the latin term "amor" and its Greek equivalent, "eros" refer to love as an insatiable, selfish desire; in the sense that Elvis Presley used to make all the women at his Las Vegas gigs in the 70s scream wildly when he performed "Burning Love" ( if you remember that Elvis hit). "Amor" and "eros" are basically references to the passionate, romantic, sexual "boy- chases-girl" (or vice versa) kind of Love. Caritas and its Greek synonym "agape" are translated as either charity or love, ( for example in St John's famous phrase: "Deus caritas est" - "God is love", or in the passage from St Paul I will pin onto the end of this post where is is translated as charity ( the theological virtue) and they refer to Love in the sense of it being an act of the selfless giving of one's personal resources ( spiritual, intellectual, emotional, material, etc) to - (and out of a purely altruistic concern for) - the welfare/well being of another person. Caritas is, in short, the kind of Love associated with the teachings and example of Jesus Christ in the Gospels.

Briefly, caritas/agape entails a complete renunciation of the proud or vain or greedy or self-centred ego, and the willing subordination and joyful surrender of this Ego and its capacities - solely for sake of, or, if you like,- in the humble service of-, another's welfare and happiness , especially if the other is a person in some kind of material need or suffering for whatever reason.

Belindi gave an example of some verses of poetry devoted to the theme of love as Caritas/agape and mentioned St Paul Letter to the Corinthians as including another example. I agree.

Finally, in 1 Corinthians 13 Paul places great emphasis on the theological virtue of Charity ( love)...saying : "So Faith, Hope and Love (Charity) remain, these three; but the greatest of these is Love. Paul describes Love/Charity as follows...

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angel and have not charity (Love), I am become as sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophesy and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity/love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love ( agape/caritas), it profiteth me nothing"............."Love never faileth: but where there be prophesies, they shall fail; where there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect ( i.e. Love) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away".

I think that if all (or most) adult men and women currently living on this planet in 2018 were (hypothetically) to take Paul at his word this very day; if they all agreed, say, to make a genuine commitment to actively begin loving each other ( with the kind love that Paul refers to as agape/caritas; that is, with the same kind Love that Christ exemplified ) then before too long there would be no more depression or suffering of any other kind. All of disvalue, all that was undesirable on this Earth would be swiftly eradicated by the irresistible "power of Love".

Regards

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by Dachshund » June 20th, 2018, 10:09 am

NB: Please delete the words:"Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels" from paragraph 4 in my post above ( error on my part) !

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Re: What are you living for?

Post by Greta » June 20th, 2018, 6:10 pm

Felix wrote:
June 20th, 2018, 6:04 am
Perhaps people would be a little more cheery if they never let themselves forget that, in the Earth's time scales, within a blink of an eye we and everyone and everything that we know and love will die or be destroyed, reduced to minerals and goo, and then reformed into something or someone else?
Oh yes, that is so very cheerful, Greta, next time I'm feeling down, I'll just remember your words, it'll surely bring me out of my funk in no time at all. Thank you so much! 8)
You are welcome, young Felix, always keen to help. What you say, though, is akin to running around the block because you are tired. That just makes you more tires. The idea is to become existentially fit! Hup hup! Work off those flabby beliefs and get yourself a sleek, six-pack paradigm, lad!

So you need to keep working out - every time you see someone you love, imagine them decomposing in the ground, when you enjoy beautiful art, rest assured it will be reduced to its component molecules at some stage. Those molecules too will break into atoms and eventually all the atoms will break apart under the influence of dark energy. This emotional inoculation helps keep one from being quite so freaked out when the inevitable deaths, destruction - and then recycling :)

The last bit is the cause for optimism. Generally speaking, replacements for dead things have been an upgrade, thus the Earth is no longer controlled by trilobites or dinosaurs.

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