In Praise of Tattoos

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Burning ghost
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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by Burning ghost » June 22nd, 2018, 4:01 am

I actually understand what you’re saying Sausage Dog. Sadly anyone who happens to have a tattoo may be offended.

Talking about my cousin, he doesn’t openly display his tattoos, although in warmer weather they would likely catch people’s eyes - he is essentially an artist, it is his passion (as far as I know.)

There is something to be said for following the crowd and certain fashions and trends. No doubt many people, in thier youth, get tattoos becasue they think it is “cool” or somehow “rebellious”, then later in life come to regret it, and/or accept it as a physical mark of their development.

I have seen some amazing tattoos in my time, and more often than not the tattoo has a personal story behind it for that person. Some mark a special occassiom in that persons life, some don’t - if the former I completely understand the intent to mark themselves something like a ritual experience to instill the memory of a particular occassion.

You may as well judge people by what they wear rather than the tattoos they display to measure “intelligence.” Having a tattoo because you think it “looks cool” is not much different from or that t-shirt instead of the other ones - the diffrence being the permanence and possible frivolity of youth (tomorrow is far away/live in the moment youthful attitudes.)

I think David Mirchell has a point here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8t2oM6majlI

A slave to fashion doesn’t mean someone is neccessarily a slave to all societal ideas. Personally I find clothes with brand names/logos obscene and they make me feel like a walking billboard - I even hate clothes that display ANY words and have had that attitude for as long as I can remember.

As women and tattoos ... many would disagree with you. People express who they are as they choose and if a woman chooses to have tattoos then it may very well make her personality shine through more prominently being a reflection of who she is ... sadly there are those that get tattoos to try and look “sexier” and simply make themselves look less appealing becasue they are not truly reflecting who they are from within.

Personally I find women in make up to be far uglier than those with none to minimal make up. The face is an important part of the body in communication so I notice that more than some tattoo (this would include the hideous “eyebrow” tattoos which look utterly ridiculous to me.)

Sheep mentality? For some, but not all. I do understand your interest though. The societal perspective of tattoos has certainly changed quite dramatically. There appears to be less stigma attached to them than in the past. Now it seems like NOT having a tattoo is to become the “bucking of a trend” which would then leave us in the opposite position declaring having tattoos is part of some slave mentality against the societal norms.
AKA badgerjelly

Steve3007
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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by Steve3007 » June 22nd, 2018, 5:24 am

If there's a philosophical, or perhaps psychological, point to this topic then I think it's the twin human preoccupations with tribalism and the visual. That is, the fear of people who (we suspect) don't have a genetic stake in our own welfare, our acute sensitivity to visual appearances (the importance of the visual cortex) and our consequent tendency to use body adornments of various kinds (from clothes to tattoos) to indicate tribal identity.

Dachshund has told us in the past of his tendency to judge people by their outward appearance - condemning people for such things as the colour that they choose to dye their hair (at least if they're women) or the colour of their skin. Obviously we all share this human tendency to judge by appearances but most of us tend to largely rationalise it away by demonstrating to ourselves that our fears are usually unfounded using the technique known as talking to people.

On the specific subject of tattoos there's a particularly interesting example in the office where I work. A colleague of mine with whom I've now worked for many years and who I know well (and with whom I've had many a philosophical conservation in the pub at lunchtime) has highly visible tattoos all up his arms (plus a skinhead and a liking for heavy metal music) and he is one of the most conservative, law-abiding sticklers for following the rules and upholding traditional values of community and family that I know. Frankly, he's often quite boring in his moral upstanding-ness. (Don't tell him I said that). I sometimes think he should occasionally let his hair down a bit (the little that he has). He's also a member of MENSA. Having studied physics at university and then been a computer programmer for many years I've met quite a few people who choose this particular tribal affiliation (large conspicuous tattoos and heavy metal). It seems to be one of the more common tribal affiliations among programmers. Another is the Bill Gates style Monty Python quoting nerd tribal affiliation.

Anyway, it is quite funny to see the old gimmers on here bemoaning the fashion trends of the young. As an old gimmer myself I do it too, with my own kids. My 12 year old son insists that expensively branded sportwear is the thing. I'm of a generation that thinks you only wear sportswear if you're in a gym or going for a jog. And don't get me started on the noise that he calls "music". "Why can't you listen to some good old fasioned music like The Jam or the Sex Pistols? At least they had a tune." I moan.

This amusing inter-generational argument has been going on since time immemorial and I hope it never ends. My favourite quote on the subject is from Mark Twain:
When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.
I'm looking forward to writing that in my son's 14th birthday card and seeing whether he gets the joke.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by ThomasHobbes » June 22nd, 2018, 5:26 am

LuckyR wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 6:06 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 4:33 pm


In under 40s in the uk a tattoo can be a sign that a person is more of a free thinker or exhibits some independent thinking, beyond the prejudices of the earlier 20thC.
At 58 my parents regarded tatts negatively.
It's almost as bad as the way those Rolling Stones wear their hair! Disgraceful.
Long haired layabout!!!
I don't know whether to hit them or kiss them.
Are they girls?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by ThomasHobbes » June 22nd, 2018, 5:29 am

Dachshund wrote:
June 22nd, 2018, 2:39 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 4:33 pm


In under 40s in the uk a tattoo can be a sign that a person is more of a free thinker or exhibits some independent thinking, beyond the prejudices of the earlier 20thC.
At 58 my parents regarded tatts negatively.




You refer to "the evidence available" and how "the evidence does not support my prejudice" (of a tendency for thugs to have themselves tattooed). WHAT evidence? To WHAT body or bodies of reputable, mainstream, empirical research evidence do you refer?

Likewise, please provide literature references to any empirical research evidence in support of any claims you make, regarding tattoos and any correlations that do or do not exist between those who have them and the presence of any particular validated human personality traits.
Don't be silly.
I was making personal observations, just like you. only you claimed absolute truth.

Having said this, I must tell you that am really not particularly interested,
I'll delete the rest of the rubbish then



I said , in my OP, that when I observe any individual in public who is CONSPICUOUSLY tattooed, that is, who has substantial tattooing on their arms, hands, legs, neck or face, etc; of a kind that is clearly visible to others, I instinctively rate that person as one who has a relatively low intelligence
********. You said NOTHING of that kind at all.
You said it was "guaranteed' they were of lower intelligence.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by ThomasHobbes » June 22nd, 2018, 5:32 am

It's not a big study but it is a study nonetheless.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.d ... eativi.pdf

Results: There were no significant group
differences regarding crystallized intelligence; moreover there was no correlation between having tattoos and creativity.
Conclusion: Tattooed students seem to be neither less intelligent nor more creative than other students.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by ThomasHobbes » June 22nd, 2018, 5:34 am

Another one, which suggest it has more to do with PERCEPTIONS than real differences.

https://digitalcommons.wou.edu/aes_event/2016/all/26/

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by ThomasHobbes » June 22nd, 2018, 5:35 am

Once again. It's all about perceptions.

http://scholarworks.uark.edu/nursuht/40/

Steve3007
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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by Steve3007 » June 22nd, 2018, 5:49 am

Are they girls?
You can't tell these days can you?


I remember my Grandad (born in 1919) telling me that he'd once made an earnest attempt to listen to my uncle's/his son's Slade records to see what all this modern music is about. "Just a load of noise" he said, with a bewildered look. He was genuinely mystified as to why anyone would want listen to it.

(For anyone under the age of 60: Slade were a popular music combo from the 1970's. I believe they had long hair and possibly some tattoos. There was definitely an album cover on which their name was written on their outstretched fists. Although I suspect that was biro.)

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Greta
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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by Greta » June 22nd, 2018, 6:49 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 4:33 pm
At 58 my parents regarded tatts negatively.
At somewhat over the age of 58, I have no more opinion about conspicuously tattooed people as the wearers of ties or pearls. These are people with a strong need to present a particular image to the world, to be recognised as part of some group or class or another.

Earlier in life when networking can be important, there's often a deep drive for display behaviours to facilitate desired contacts. I look back on those games today and consider it all to be pretty funny and silly, like the ritualistic mating dances of other species, but at the time it seemed deadly serious and had significant stakes - relationships, reputation, promotions etc.


John, as with many others, struggles with the fact that large societies are, and need to be, extremely pluralist in nature. Basically, we each rely on the efforts of people whom we'd not be able to relate to socially at all, and they rely on our work in turn. This includes the usual conservative punching bags - the unemployed and underemployed. Without them inflation would erode savings and create recession. Everyone, has their place and their role, even if it's inadvertently sacrificial, as above, or in providing lessons on mistakes to avoid in life.

So maybe we can speak in praise of diversity instead - not as a parrotted "PC" iconic concept, but as a realistic, practical and reasonable attitude towards inevitabilities?

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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by Dachshund » June 22nd, 2018, 8:02 am

Steve3007 wrote:
June 22nd, 2018, 5:24 am
On the specific subject of tattoos there's a particularly interesting example in the office where I work. A colleague of mine with whom I've now worked for many years and who I know well (and with whom I've had many a philosophical conservation in the pub at lunchtime) has highly visible tattoos all up his arms (plus a skinhead and a liking for heavy metal music) and he is one of the most conservative, law-abiding sticklers for following the rules and upholding traditional values of community and family that I know. Frankly, he's often quite boring in his moral upstanding-ness. (Don't tell him I said that). I sometimes think he should occasionally let his hair down a bit (the little that he has). He's also a member of MENSA. Having studied physics at university and then been a computer programmer for many years I've met quite a few people who choose this particular tribal affiliation (large conspicuous tattoos and heavy metal).

Pure ********, Steve,

Why would a traditional English conservative, one who is by definition a person who deeply respects and is strongly committed to defending the integrity of the traditional values, customs, institutions, the civil manners and mores of polite, decent society that have been established in their community since time immemorial; egregiously insult his fellow conservative peers and implicitly condemn their worldview by disporting himself about his local community with a shaven skull and conspicuous tattooing on his arms telling people that he is affiliated with the Heavy Metal music sub-culture.

Let us make no mistake here, Steve, the image your colleague has intentionally manufactured for himself is shot through with: (1) potent symbols of violence, antisociality and civil revolt ( i.e the shaved skull of the racist "Skin-Head", the thuggish punk or hate-fuelled the neo-Nazi fanatic); (2) frank confrontational non-conformity (the heavily tattooed arms/skull); (3) a flagrant disrespect for Christian morality ( affiliation with the "Heavy Metal" subculture, well-known to be perfused with violent black occult themes, extremely evil/diabolical symbolism of all manner, disgusting satanic/demonic imagery and so on) Your colleague, according to your description, presents and comports himself in a manner totally incompatible with any genuine respect for the values of traditional English social conservatism. Therefore, he is absoltely not a bone fide conservative.

I do not care, BTW, if he is claims to be a member of MENSA; - that kind pretentious nonsense cuts no ice with me (!) As I have said before on this forum, I have met more fools and human "basket-cases" sipping tea in University staff common rooms than I care to recount. They can tell you all about the latest cutting-edge theory of X, but they have great trouble when it comes to basic functioning. They are, in many cases, that is, unable (metaphorically speaking) even to " properly wipe their own arses". Simply too "stupid", in sum, to demonstrate a basic level of competent adaptive functioning in the normal day -to -day "Hurley-Burley" of modern life in West the 21st century.

Your tattooed "conservative" colleague, IMO, clearly exhibits some kind of material psychiatric personality pathology: perhaps he is a compensatory narcissist, maybe he is afflicted with some kind of schizotypal personality disorder or some species of delusory disorder, is it is impossible to say. When I meet people like your colleague I tend to quickly categorise them a "wankers" pure and simple, and I always give them a very wide berth; if I am forced to work in a staffroom etc with one of them I find it very unsatisfactory and make a point of never approaching them or encouraging them approach me in any way.

Your little vignette actually reminds me that I must, I think, add , that whilst the majority of those who have fallen victim to the contemporary Western tattoo - pandemic ( which has seen an ancient process of human uglification suddenly go "viral" over the past 30 years) are basically just dumb, very impressionable, weak-minded, stupid individuals (what Nietzsche termed "herd animals"- those who manifest an inferior and weakly "slave morality"); some persons ( a much smaller group than these "sheep") who have themselves conspicuously tattooed do so chiefly because they are, in fact, afflicted with some kind of bone fide psychiatric condition, very often a serious personality disorder. Here I would cite narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality ( this is very common in some heavily- tattooed women) disorder and histrionic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder as classic examples of personality pathologies that might well dispose those they afflict to have themselves conspicuously and densely tattooed . (Another very good reason, BTW , if you have an ounce of common sense, to steer well clear of individuals you see in public who are conspicuously tattooed!!)




Regards


Dachshund

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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by Dachshund » June 22nd, 2018, 8:18 am

Steve,

I've still got my old Slade albums. They were extremely loud when they played live. My fave Slade single wss "Come Feel the Noise"? Noddy Holder ( leader of the band ) did not have any tattoos, as for the others guys, I'm not 100% sure. BTW, being a Rock Star and having conspicuous tattoos is a different ball of wax to what I am talking about. Rock stars are in the entertainment business and so their image is an important part of their act, it can make lots money for them if it is carefully manufactured. For hard rock and roll stars ( people like "The Clash, say) having a tattoo or two on display at concerts/on album covers could well pay big cash dividends - that's the nature of the business. ( none of the members of "The Clash" had any tattoos, BTW - just too classy an outfit, I guess !!)

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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by Steve3007 » June 22nd, 2018, 8:23 am

On tatooed people in general:
Dachshund wrote:...I regard them as particularly dangerous ( due, as I say,to their dangerous lack of intelligence). If such a person ever sits next to mean on public transport, in a cinema or, say, in a doctor or dentist's waiting room ,etc; I immediately vacate my position, even if it means I have to stand outside and wait for my appointment.
...When I meet people like your colleague I tend to quickly categorise them a "wankers" pure and simple, and I always give them a very wide berth; if I am forced to work in a staffroom etc with one of them I find it very unsatisfactory and make a point of never approaching them or encouraging them approach me in any way.
I presume this is the root of your problem and the reason why you appear to find the modern world so baffling and frightening. If you continue to judge the world by its superficial appearance and never attempt to engage with anybody personally unless you judge them, at first sight, to be one of your own kind (even in circumstances where you are safe from harm if they turn nasty) then you'll continue to rail impotently against it all. Obviously, if you enjoy doing that, carry on.

If not, next time you sit next to someone with tattoos in the relative safety of the doctors waiting room, try turning to him/her with a cheery smile and saying "it's turned out nice again!". If he/she says "f**k off mate" then you'd be justified in vacating your position. If he/she says "yes, but it's forecast to rain at the weekend. Still, it's good for the garden..." then you're off on an adventure into the mind of a fellow human being.

---
I do not care, BTW, if he is claims to be a member of MENSA; - that kind pretentious nonsense cuts no ice with me (!)
I agree with this part and I've told him as much.

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Thinking critical
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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by Thinking critical » June 22nd, 2018, 8:24 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 8:23 am
Thinking critical wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 8:10 am
Dachshund, I can assure you that there is empirically zero correlation between tattoos and intelligence.
Wrong.

There is a correlation between intelligence and tattoos, just as there is a correlation between the number of stars in the universe and how many eggs I had for breakfast.

I think what you meant to say is there is no causal relationship between intelligence and tattoos.
Correlation is not causation is a common enough axiom.
Nope, I meant exactly what I said "correlation" there is no mutual relationship between tattoos and level of intelligence.
As for the empirical evidence...
I would suggest that in the UK, at least, fewer smart people have tattoos. But that is only from experience. If you want to make an empirical claim then find some evidence.
You want evidence? Fine, first define what you mean by intelligence then provide a valid method of measuring it? In the mean time, if you want evidence.......I am living breathing proof. I am covered in tattoos and also the national operations manager of multi franchise automotive company which currently employs over 5,000 staff. The majority of the GMs and managers who report to me do NOT have tattoos themselves, however none of them are smart enough or have the intelligence required to impress the directors of the company I work for to have the position that I have obtained.

Where I come from tattoos are considered sacred and are a respected tradition deeply inbeded our culture.

Any attempt to correlate tattoos with lower intelligence is nothing more than profound ignorance. Any form of stereotyping specific cultures with such a generalised sweeping statement is a pure example of cognitive dissonance.
The very fact that someone would attempt or be even willing to debate such a delusional agenda demonstrates a certain lack of intellectual credibility that one would expect from rational member of society who is capable of expressing the type of coherent thoughts that we might deem as reasonable.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out

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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by Steve3007 » June 22nd, 2018, 8:38 am

Dachshund wrote:I've still got my old Slade albums. They were extremely loud when they played live.
In my experience, most music is when you go and see the band live. Certainly at small gigs. I went to see Half Man Half Biscuit in Kentish Town a couple of weeks ago. They're a niche band that has been around since the mid 80's (my heyday) and it caused me to think about the curious tribal phenomenon of going to see a band, particularly one that most people have never heard of. For a couple of hours a concentrated mix of people who's one definite common characteristic is a love for that band accumulates, and then rapidly disperses like a gas. Within a couple of tube stops of leaving the gig, the concentration of Half Man Half Biscuit fans had reduced back down to trace background levels, detectable only with special equipment.

I got talking to a few people there to try to figure out if there was anything else we all had in common. Not sure if I succeeded.

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Re: In Praise of Tattoos

Post by Thinking critical » June 22nd, 2018, 8:40 am

*would not expect from a rational member of society.

Apologies for them typo, this site lacks the ability to edit posts.
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