Can someone check this to see if it follows

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
User avatar
telnaria
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: June 25th, 2018, 11:42 am

Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by telnaria »

Can someone check this to see if it follows:

p1) I know p is false.
p2) I can not then know p is true. (by contradiction of p1)
p3) Knowledge is a subset of belief.
p4) If can not know p is true, then I can not believe p is true (p3,p2)
p5) if can not believe p is true, then i do not believe p.

Conclusion: I do not believe p is true
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Steve3007 »

In p3 you assert that knowledge is a subset of belief. Therefore there are some members of "belief" that are not members of "knowledge". Therefore it is possible to believe something without knowing it. Therefore p4 does not follow from p1 to p3. You can believe that p is true even if you don't know that it's true; even if you know that it is false (p1). Therefore your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises. Premise p3 allows you to believe whatever you like.
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Tamminen »

telnaria wrote: June 25th, 2018, 11:44 am Can someone check this to see if it follows:

p1) I know p is false.
p2) I can not then know p is true. (by contradiction of p1)
p3) Knowledge is a subset of belief.
p4) If can not know p is true, then I can not believe p is true (p3,p2)
p5) if can not believe p is true, then i do not believe p.

Conclusion: I do not believe p is true
If knowledge is true belief, and we define
s: I believe p is false
t: p is false,
then s&t is true only if s is true.
User avatar
telnaria
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: June 25th, 2018, 11:42 am

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by telnaria »

Is it true that s will be true regardless of t
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Tamminen »

telnaria wrote: June 26th, 2018, 9:58 pm Is it true that s will be true regardless of t
If you know p is false, you also believe p is false, but you may believe p is false or true whatever the truth value of p.
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Tamminen »

Note that if you believe p is false, and p is false, that does not necessarily mean you know p is false, because it can only happen by chance that your belief is true. The famous definition of truth is "justified true belief", but in fact the situation is even more complicated.
User avatar
-1-
Posts: 878
Joined: December 1st, 2016, 2:23 am

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by -1- »

telnaria wrote: June 25th, 2018, 11:44 am Can someone check this to see if it follows:

p1) I know p is false.
p2) I can not then know p is true. (by contradiction of p1)
p3) Knowledge is a subset of belief.
p4) If can not know p is true, then I can not believe p is true (p3,p2)
p5) if can not believe p is true, then i do not believe p.

Conclusion: I do not believe p is true
p2 is a false conclusion. The correct one is "I know p is not true."
p4 is also false. "Peter I believed married Mary". I have no clue if this is true; I don't even know Peter and Mary. But I am at a liberty to believe Peter married Mary. Nothing contradictory about that.
p5 is a semantic truism. "I can't do x therefore I do not do x". It has nothing to do with the foregoing.

To give teeth to this example, substitute a truism for p, such as "I am Peter and I am not Peter." This you know to be false. For sure. NO arguments can be brought up to prove this to be true.
Can you then not know p is true? Of course you can. P is not true. YOU KNOW P is not true.

The entire argument is fragmented, full of false conclusions, and disparate, incongruent logical connections.
This search engine is powered by Hunger, Thirst, and a desperate need to Mate.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Alias »

telnaria wrote: June 25th, 2018, 11:44 am Can someone check this to see if it follows:

p1) I know p is false.

Conclusion: I do not believe p is true
Streamlined it for you.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Eduk »

Thank you alias. Much better.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Burning ghost »

If you have two contrary premises you’ll end up with a contrary conclusion.

May as well have said something like:

P1) p cannot be q
P2) p can be q

Conclusion is that this is a contradiction.

So if you start by saying “I know p is false” when in logic the tendency is to simple say “p is false.” Then you go on to say “knowledge is a subset of belief” without any explantion, yet trying to tag this “knowledge” onto the proposition of “true/false.”

Really are you simply saying if p is p, then p is p? No argument there.

P3 is setting out the idea of belief prior to knowledge, but you fail to note that knowledge can precede belief too. Again an endless circle (not that you’ve taken the time to define either - hence the hodgepodge of P4 and P5)

Recognise the use of belief and believe, and the use of knowledge and know. They are obviously related yet they are not always working within the same frame depending on the context they are applied in.

You may find it useful to employ other terms such as “apodictic knowledge,” “scientific fact”, “logical truth/validity/contradiction”, and such. At the moment it looks like you’re conflating several different approaches and coming up with a rather confusing and messy approach to presentig a logical proposition (not that I’m an expert!)
AKA badgerjelly
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Tamminen »

I think what Alias says is essentially how it goes. To be precise:

If believing is an essential part of knowing, then if I know p is false, I also believe p is false, and therefore (1) I cannot know p is true and (2) I cannot believe p is true. But (2) does not follow from (1).
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Tamminen »

A clarifying example: If there are no unicorns, I cannot know there are unicorns, but I can believe there are unicorns. But if I know there are no unicorns, I cannot believe there are unicorns.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Burning ghost »

If the premise is “Unicorns exist” then it is true that unicorns exist.

That is how logic works. Alias is correct to the extend he tried to point out that premises in logic need not be true or believed, they are what we determine truths from.

Don’t confuse logic with reality.

Example:

P1) If it is raining I will turn into a pumpkin.
P2) It is raining.

Conclusion: I have turned into a pumpkin.

The above is true if the logic is followed through. The OP is suffering from a lack of semantic distinction. I can say Alias doesn’t exist because “Alias” is not that persons name therefore if the name is false then “Alias” is not a person and doesn’t exist (in that strict sense.)

I am no expert on logic. It’s a very tricky and delicate business to learn the machinations of it. I’ve tried a little, but find it difficult to shake loose from concepts of arithmetic when it comes to combining and moving things around.
AKA badgerjelly
Tamminen
Posts: 1347
Joined: April 19th, 2016, 2:53 pm

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Tamminen »

Burning ghost wrote: June 28th, 2018, 10:58 am The OP is suffering from a lack of semantic distinction.
telnaria wrote: June 25th, 2018, 11:44 am p1) I know p is false.
p2) I can not then know p is true. (by contradiction of p1)
p3) Knowledge is a subset of belief.
p4) If can not know p is true, then I can not believe p is true (p3,p2)
p5) if can not believe p is true, then i do not believe p.

Conclusion: I do not believe p is true
I see no problem with semantics. The only problem is that the conclusion does not follow from p3 and p2, but from p1 and p3: I know p is false -> I believe p is false -> I do not believe p is true.
User avatar
Burning ghost
Posts: 3065
Joined: February 27th, 2016, 3:10 am

Re: Can someone check this to see if it follows

Post by Burning ghost »

P3 says “knowledge” is a kind of “belief” doesn’t it?
AKA badgerjelly
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021