Eve and Pandora

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Maxcady10001
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Eve and Pandora

Post by Maxcady10001 » July 27th, 2018, 12:11 pm

Considering both stories about the origins of what's called evil, why woman as the cause, and what's the difference between knowledge and hope in the context of the stories?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 27th, 2018, 3:16 pm

It's highly likely that both myths had a common origin long before the OT or Hesiod finally wrote them down.

Why women?

Ask any thirteen year old boy who finds that one day women have a never before felt, strange effect on his cock and on his mind which will get him into trouble. What strange magic is this evil thing called womanhood.

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LuckyR
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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by LuckyR » July 27th, 2018, 4:28 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 27th, 2018, 3:16 pm
It's highly likely that both myths had a common origin long before the OT or Hesiod finally wrote them down.

Why women?

Ask any thirteen year old boy who finds that one day women have a never before felt, strange effect on his cock and on his mind which will get him into trouble. What strange magic is this evil thing called womanhood.
Something tells me that gay thirteen year old boy's experiences are not rooted in the "magic" of womanhood. In other words it's more about the 13 year old's brain than what happens to occupy it's gaze.
"As usual... it depends."

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 27th, 2018, 5:13 pm

LuckyR wrote:
July 27th, 2018, 4:28 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 27th, 2018, 3:16 pm
It's highly likely that both myths had a common origin long before the OT or Hesiod finally wrote them down.

Why women?

Ask any thirteen year old boy who finds that one day women have a never before felt, strange effect on his cock and on his mind which will get him into trouble. What strange magic is this evil thing called womanhood.
Something tells me that gay thirteen year old boy's experiences are not rooted in the "magic" of womanhood. In other words it's more about the 13 year old's brain than what happens to occupy it's gaze.
Homosexuals do not represent a high percentage of the population. So I'm puzzled why you brought them up.
It's about hormones and an evolutionary response to visual stimuli. So yes it is about what happens to occupy the gaze.
I'm sure that gay boys find the magic in the appearance of men too.

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LuckyR
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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by LuckyR » July 27th, 2018, 5:22 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 27th, 2018, 5:13 pm
LuckyR wrote:
July 27th, 2018, 4:28 pm


Something tells me that gay thirteen year old boy's experiences are not rooted in the "magic" of womanhood. In other words it's more about the 13 year old's brain than what happens to occupy it's gaze.
Homosexuals do not represent a high percentage of the population. So I'm puzzled why you brought them up.
It's about hormones and an evolutionary response to visual stimuli. So yes it is about what happens to occupy the gaze.
I'm sure that gay boys find the magic in the appearance of men too.
Yes, that's called the Tyranny of the Majority. You're right it IS about hormones. Though the fact that the quite numerous creative and artisitics (of various sexual persuasions) through millennia happened to pander to the standard hetero view in their public works surprises no one but is likely rooted more in social convention that the intrinsic characteristics of women, per se'.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by Steve3007 » July 28th, 2018, 3:38 am

I think misogyny is quite an interesting subject in its own right, given that it is so widespread and, as the OP says, is built into our culture.

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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by Steve3007 » July 28th, 2018, 4:09 am

The concept of witchcraft, and the possible reasons why it's so often associated with old women, is an interesting one. "Daemonologie", written by King James Vi of Scotland / James I of England, seems to have been very influential, possibly used as research material for Shakespeare's Macbeth and inspiring numerous witch trials across England and Scotland, as well as the infamous ones in Salem Massachusetts. James sought biblical justification for his beliefs that witches should be killed (Exodus: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live") but was motivated by fear of the political power of large gatherings of women.

Or so I've read.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 28th, 2018, 6:38 am

LuckyR wrote:
July 27th, 2018, 5:22 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 27th, 2018, 5:13 pm


Homosexuals do not represent a high percentage of the population. So I'm puzzled why you brought them up.
It's about hormones and an evolutionary response to visual stimuli. So yes it is about what happens to occupy the gaze.
I'm sure that gay boys find the magic in the appearance of men too.
Yes, that's called the Tyranny of the Majority. You're right it IS about hormones. Though the fact that the quite numerous creative and artisitics (of various sexual persuasions) through millennia happened to pander to the standard hetero view in their public works surprises no one but is likely rooted more in social convention that the intrinsic characteristics of women, per se'.
In a patriarchy gays, and even women, probably accept and propagate the cultural myths of their own society.
I'm just offering a hard physical reality for why this particular myth. Innate sexual drives are powerful forces and lead to many odd consequences.

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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by Alias » July 28th, 2018, 8:59 am

Though every second 'author' these days is young and very keen on demons, vampires, witches and zombies, I don't think ancient mythology was written by teenagers. By the time an elder commands the attention of listeners, he's way past any mystique in which he may have held womankind; he's got an elderly crone at home who scold him for tardiness at meals and finds his walking stick when he mislays it. IOW, he knows how ordinary and necessary women are. Besides, in ancient civilizations, 'magic' was pretty much all wielded by the same old men who told the stories.

Mythology is the representation of a people's identity and place in the world. They usually include a creation story with their own ancestors at the center, and a long, adventurous, romanticized history of where they've been, whom they fought and how they lived. They also include fanciful explanations of how things came to be as they are: how the stars were put in the sky, why bad things happen, how fire was invented, how the zebra got his stripes, where Grandmother went after she got sick, who gave us the law - answers to all the important questions people mull over. These explanations are not made up all of a piece; they coalesce from conjectures, anecdotes, tall tales, dreams, lectures and warnings; over time, they're distilled into an oral tradition that passes down the generations. By the time an alphabet is invented, it's impossible to trace any myth back to its origin.

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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by Alias » July 28th, 2018, 9:08 am

Also, there are plenty of myths, in every culture, that depict a man doing something reckless, arrogant or foolish that brings heavy retribution on their tribe. You could pick out Phaeton and Cain and claim they indicate misandry - but they didn't. Ancient stories do often include personifications of observed human characteristics, and admonitions against indulging these.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire

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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by LuckyR » July 28th, 2018, 9:51 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 28th, 2018, 6:38 am
LuckyR wrote:
July 27th, 2018, 5:22 pm


Yes, that's called the Tyranny of the Majority. You're right it IS about hormones. Though the fact that the quite numerous creative and artisitics (of various sexual persuasions) through millennia happened to pander to the standard hetero view in their public works surprises no one but is likely rooted more in social convention that the intrinsic characteristics of women, per se'.
In a patriarchy gays, and even women, probably accept and propagate the cultural myths of their own society.
I'm just offering a hard physical reality for why this particular myth. Innate sexual drives are powerful forces and lead to many odd consequences.
On that we are in complete agreement
"As usual... it depends."

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 29th, 2018, 4:46 am

Alias wrote:
July 28th, 2018, 8:59 am
Though every second 'author' these days is young and very keen on demons, vampires, witches and zombies, I don't think ancient mythology was written by teenagers.
~Every man had to go through teenage, so your objection is not valid.

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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by Name Is Unnecessary » July 29th, 2018, 5:43 am

what's the difference between knowledge and hope in the context of the stories?
I don't remember hope being brought in the story for Eve, but in both stories the reason for the punishment was that humans gained knowledge they weren't supposed to have. In the story for Pandora it might be a bit less obvious, but Prometeus saw people's not-wellbeing and gave them the divine fire - but also taught them using it, crafting tools, raising plants and animals etc. And I don't think this can be dismissed as knowledge. Zeus, of course, didn't like the idea and with the help of the other gods sent Pandora.

I may guess that whoever the authors of these myths were, they inserted knowledge as both power and burden, the same way superheroes' powers are described: "With big power comes big responsibility?" Of course, all that is my lack of respect for mythology, but the thing is that I lack respect for everything.
why woman
Patriarchal society first came to my mind. The other reason could be women's dual nature - kindhearted or dangerous.

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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by Alias » July 29th, 2018, 9:57 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 29th, 2018, 4:46 am
[ I don't think ancient mythology was written by teenagers. ]

~Every man had to go through teenage, so your objection is not valid.
"Go through" is quite different from "Be in". My objection was predicated on the man having survived adolescence, having matured, having learned that there is no more mystique to the feminine than there is to the masculine. So your objection to my objection is invalid.

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Re: Eve and Pandora

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 29th, 2018, 10:03 am

Alias wrote:
July 29th, 2018, 9:57 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 29th, 2018, 4:46 am
[ I don't think ancient mythology was written by teenagers. ]

~Every man had to go through teenage, so your objection is not valid.
"Go through" is quite different from "Be in". My objection was predicated on the man having survived adolescence, having matured, having learned that there is no more mystique to the feminine than there is to the masculine. So your objection to my objection is invalid.
Maturity leads to understand the power of women over men.
So your objection to my objection of your point is invalid.
You've only to understand the widespread myth from Augustine to Hesiod to know what mature men understand that power.

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