Gorgias Socrates: Persuation and Oratory

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RamseyKN
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Gorgias Socrates: Persuation and Oratory

Post by RamseyKN »

I am having a bit of trouble trying to understand how to ansewr this question given to me. First, is it a question, or is a problem required to answer? I see it to ask, in Plato's Gorgias, why does socrates think oratory is a bad thing? Evidence being that it allows the orator to make people belief and do what that person wants them to do. Saying therefore, is it morally right? However, it then says, isn't that the point of all conversations? Contradicting itself? Do i give a balanced answer giving evidence for both or is the point of a philosophy paper to give your reasons and interpretation on an 'issue'?

In the Gorgias, Socrates notes that “oratory is a producer of persuasion” [453a]. Why does he think of this as an indictment against oratory ? Isn’t the attempt to persuade a legitimate aim of anyone engaged in conversation ?
df544
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Post by df544 »

"YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY !"

Remember that in the movie "Planes, Trains and Automobiles"?

Oratory is needed if direction is needed.

The problem with oratory today is that the orator is speaking someone else's babble (a.k.a the speech writer).

Obama the greaer orator that he is doesn't write his own speeches.

Hitler did.

So I think this is what Socrates was afraid of-- a hitler.

Men, like Socrates, who speak the truth have limited audiences and they usually are killed for "corrupting" so and so.
RamseyKN
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Post by RamseyKN »

So what issues does the question ask? What do you think is needed in that essay question?
In the Gorgias, Socrates notes that “oratory is a producer of persuasion” [453a]. Why does he think of this as an indictment against oratory ? Isn’t the attempt to persuade a legitimate aim of anyone engaged in conversation ?
I find the question is asking what are the problems with oratory? For example, it is asking me to find ways which shows oratory is misused. Be it in politic's or to just simple try and get you what you want out of someone which is morally wrong or injust.

Socrates aim does seem to have been to show the audience the truth but isnt the question asking, why?
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Vlad
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Post by Vlad »

I'm in a rush, sorry I didn't read everyone's reply,

Socrates can not support oratory because it is the thing that Gorgias can win at (Gorgias wins the dialogue, the only one in all Plato's works, at least it is a draw.) Socrates only cares about what is real and good, not about word games ...
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Maffei
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Re: Gorgias Socrates: Persuation and Oratory

Post by Maffei »

Socrates makes Gorgias admit that the rethor don't have a compromise with justice, although he speaks like he would care

"Socrates: [...] rhetoric, as would appear, is the artificer of a persuasion which creates belief about the just and unjust, but gives no instruction about them?

Gorgias: True."

Gorgias admit the advantage of persuasion, saying that is great to not be compromised with knowledge.

"Soc. And the same holds of the relation of rhetoric to all the other arts; the rhetorician need not know the truth about things; he has only to discover some way of persuading the ignorant that he has more knowledge than those who know?

Gor. Yes, Socrates, and is not this a great comfort?-not to have learned the other arts, but the art of rhetoric only, and yet to be in no way inferior to the professors of them?"

So you see Socrates shows that if your goal is to persuade, the truth will always be in the background. Seems that these two things can't be balanced. You can argue that to communicate truth you have also to use communication techniques, but, at least to Socrates, to be clear is not persuasion because it don't try to compensate a lack of knowledge. Truth can convince without trying to impress, and that's why in the end of the dialogue Socrates wins Gorgias audience
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Burning ghost
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Re: Gorgias Socrates: Persuation and Oratory

Post by Burning ghost »

The issue is that speaking purely to persuade people hinders possible critique. If you merely persuade your audience to agree with you then you don't progress your ideas or develop them in any way. You merely find yourself in an echo chamber that you are pushing to expand further and further.

This is not to say that persuasion does not rouse certain opposition, only that critique by the opposition is likely to be quashed by the overwhelming mass of people adhering to the persuasion of the proposition.

Of course this can all be countered give the right speech. The speech may very well be one that appeals to people to question this or that idea rather than be strung along by the empty rhetoric of misguided persuasion and mere entertainment.

I prefer to view the pre-Socratic philosophers as being early linguists who lacked a scientific method of investigation. They clearly understood the persuasive nature of words and the absurdity of humans laying meaning to the meaningless, being convinced by what sounded "nice" regardless of "truth" or "clarity".

If you're writing for school I would suggest comparing the general mind-set of the pre-Socratic traditions and perhaps even adding something of Aristotle's "Rhetoric". Consider dialectic, rhetoric and oration as part of one greater whole and outlining theese things before delving directly into the specifics of Gorgias and Socrates, that would be my advice.

note: I am no "professional", merely a wannabe intellectual ;)
AKA badgerjelly
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Maffei
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Re: Gorgias Socrates: Persuation and Oratory

Post by Maffei »

I'm not writing for school. I'm also just a "wanabe", although I prefer to think "I am" already.

Burning ghost, maybe we can get in the same places if we use your reccomended method or if we would just read the book critically and keep researching further. Some arguments of the rhetors already suggests that the goal of Socrates can be unreacheable, like "who won't admit that don't know justice?", Polo (also an orator) says to Socrates. But he is interested in defend rethoric as an respectful art instead of questioning the linguistic relativeness of a truth that Socrates tries to reach.

If Polo wasn't a ambitious person and envious of the tyrants, he would press Socrates to explain why he is so sure about an ultimate concept of justice. That is, the argument of Socrates uses a prioris of truth, goodness and admirable to make Polo shameful of admiring tyrants and other sort of powerful people, and, under some interpretations, what Plato is trying to show in Gorgias is that even an argument based on truth needs some convincing process. Today, this would mean that science and education can't be totally apart of politics, even when they think they are. They owe society an explanation.

So I had already perceived that this dialogue alone don't aswer all questions about rethoric and rethoric can be curiously a way of questioning ultimate truths. But don't seem to be strictly necessary to always do a bibliographical revision of concepts every time before exploring an specific book. Kant spoke about an "safe way of science", not a "safe way of philosophy".

I see philosophy can perfectly jump in the sea first and, if you are a good surfer, you can deal with this turbulence of concepts along the way.
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Maffei
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Re: Gorgias Socrates: Persuation and Oratory

Post by Maffei »

note: English is not my first language, so you can find an error here and there even with a proofreading. Sorry for that
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