Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

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A_Seagull
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by A_Seagull »

Platos stepchild wrote:
A_Seagull wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Impeccable logic Plato, except that you don't seem to have considered the possibility that the original statement: "There are no absolutes in philosophy", is not absolute, but is philosophical.
If the statement there are no absolutes in philosophy is absolute, then it's inherently illogical. I agree with you that the statement is philosophical, but I disagree that it's not absolute. I'm going to make an assumption about your worldview. I apologize if I'm wrong; but, it's my best guess. It seems that you regard philosophy as a mode-of-discourse, separate from logic.

First of all, logic is actually many different modes-of-discourse, each making conditional as well as absolute assertions. Philosophy deals with what's called epistemic modalities (which is to say, that which eventually might be, might have been, or must be, etc.). So, when I claimed that there are no absolutes in philosophy can't be a philosophical statement, my intention was to show the inherent illogic, because the statement is philosophical.

Consider the statement there are no absolutes in philosophy. It's essentially a claim that something must be true. This is a clear epistemic modality, which is to say, a philosophical and a logical statement. Philosophy is therefore not a mode-of-discourse, separate from logic. I contend that which must be true, is absolutely true. So, if the statement is true, then there are no absolutes in philosophy.

But, if it's true there are absolutely no absolutes in philosophy, and if the statement is philosophical, then we have a non sequitur. That's my original point: we're driven to conclude there are absolutes in philosophy. Now, even though we know there are absolutes in philosophy, what they are is a different question, entirely. I make no claim as to that question. I'm curious to know what you think.

I wasn't actually arguing that the statement wasn't absolute, I was just interested in seeing how you might deal with it from a logical standpoint.

Another way of dealing with it logically is to have statements in 'philosophy' and other statements in a 'meta-philosophy' which relate to 'philosophy' but are not in 'philosophy'. In such a scenario you could have the absolute statement in the meta-philosophy which states that "there are no absolutes in philosophy" without contradiction.

As for my own perspective I see philosophy (or philosophies) as a model. And as such a degree of certainty (or absoluteness) is required lest the model becomes too unstable and collapses under its own uncertainty. And these certainties may well be labelled as 'truths'. (These truths need not have a perfect correspondence with any noumena but they do require a close correlation with the phenomena.)

But this still leaves open the question as to whether a model can be considered to be 'absolute'.
The Pattern Paradigm - yer can't beat it!
Platos stepchild
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by Platos stepchild »

A_Seagull wrote:
Platos stepchild wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

If the statement there are no absolutes in philosophy is absolute, then it's inherently illogical. I agree with you that the statement is philosophical, but I disagree that it's not absolute. I'm going to make an assumption about your worldview. I apologize if I'm wrong; but, it's my best guess. It seems that you regard philosophy as a mode-of-discourse, separate from logic.

First of all, logic is actually many different modes-of-discourse, each making conditional as well as absolute assertions. Philosophy deals with what's called epistemic modalities (which is to say, that which eventually might be, might have been, or must be, etc.). So, when I claimed that there are no absolutes in philosophy can't be a philosophical statement, my intention was to show the inherent illogic, because the statement is philosophical.

Consider the statement there are no absolutes in philosophy. It's essentially a claim that something must be true. This is a clear epistemic modality, which is to say, a philosophical and a logical statement. Philosophy is therefore not a mode-of-discourse, separate from logic. I contend that which must be true, is absolutely true. So, if the statement is true, then there are no absolutes in philosophy.

But, if it's true there are absolutely no absolutes in philosophy, and if the statement is philosophical, then we have a non sequitur. That's my original point: we're driven to conclude there are absolutes in philosophy. Now, even though we know there are absolutes in philosophy, what they are is a different question, entirely. I make no claim as to that question. I'm curious to know what you think.

I wasn't actually arguing that the statement wasn't absolute, I was just interested in seeing how you might deal with it from a logical standpoint.

Another way of dealing with it logically is to have statements in 'philosophy' and other statements in a 'meta-philosophy' which relate to 'philosophy' but are not in 'philosophy'. In such a scenario you could have the absolute statement in the meta-philosophy which states that "there are no absolutes in philosophy" without contradiction.

As for my own perspective I see philosophy (or philosophies) as a model. And as such a degree of certainty (or absoluteness) is required lest the model becomes too unstable and collapses under its own uncertainty. And these certainties may well be labelled as 'truths'. (These truths need not have a perfect correspondence with any noumena but they do require a close correlation with the phenomena.)

But this still leaves open the question as to whether a model can be considered to be 'absolute'.
So, whereas philosophy deals with philosophical queries, meta-philosophy deals with queries
about philosophical queries. For example: a philosophical query might be what does it mean to know something, which then looks at the characteristics of knowing. Meta-philosophy takes the philosophical query as a thing-in-itself, and then asks what might (or might not) be true of it, vis-a-vis other philosophical queries.

As you've pointed out, it's important to realize that meta-philosophical queries aren't themselves philosophical, in nature. The logician, Kurt Godel proved there are inherent limitations in every axiomatic system, which contains basic arithmetic. At first blush, it may not seem obvious that philosophy, even though axiomatic, is based on arithmetic. However, the logical connectors and/or give it a basic arithmetical structure.

The same logical connectors give basic arithmetical structure to meta-philosophy, as well. Since philosophy and meta-philosophy are separate axiomatic systems, it therefore follows (a-la Godel) that meta-philosophy can make meaningful statements about philosophy which it can't make about itself. So, is the statement there are absolutes in philosophy a philosophical statement? I believe it is.

Admittedly, there's no algorithm for determining whether the statement there are absolutes in philosophy is philosophical, or meta-philosophical. How are we to then decide? My reason for believing it is, is because the statement goes to the very heart of philosophy. To answer it, either yes or no is to define philosophical enquiry. Knowing whether there are absolutes in philosophy strikes me as a quintessential philosophical question. I presume that you disagree with me.
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Mosesquine
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by Mosesquine »

I think I am a philosopher. Philosophers are defined as those who can state philosophical problems and answers *clearly*. I think I do.
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A_Seagull
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by A_Seagull »

Platos stepchild wrote:
A_Seagull wrote: (Nested quote removed.)



I wasn't actually arguing that the statement wasn't absolute, I was just interested in seeing how you might deal with it from a logical standpoint.

Another way of dealing with it logically is to have statements in 'philosophy' and other statements in a 'meta-philosophy' which relate to 'philosophy' but are not in 'philosophy'. In such a scenario you could have the absolute statement in the meta-philosophy which states that "there are no absolutes in philosophy" without contradiction.

As for my own perspective I see philosophy (or philosophies) as a model. And as such a degree of certainty (or absoluteness) is required lest the model becomes too unstable and collapses under its own uncertainty. And these certainties may well be labelled as 'truths'. (These truths need not have a perfect correspondence with any noumena but they do require a close correlation with the phenomena.)

But this still leaves open the question as to whether a model can be considered to be 'absolute'.
So, whereas philosophy deals with philosophical queries, meta-philosophy deals with queries
about philosophical queries. For example: a philosophical query might be what does it mean to know something, which then looks at the characteristics of knowing. Meta-philosophy takes the philosophical query as a thing-in-itself, and then asks what might (or might not) be true of it, vis-a-vis other philosophical queries.

As you've pointed out, it's important to realize that meta-philosophical queries aren't themselves philosophical, in nature. The logician, Kurt Godel proved there are inherent limitations in every axiomatic system, which contains basic arithmetic. At first blush, it may not seem obvious that philosophy, even though axiomatic, is based on arithmetic. However, the logical connectors and/or give it a basic arithmetical structure.

The same logical connectors give basic arithmetical structure to meta-philosophy, as well. Since philosophy and meta-philosophy are separate axiomatic systems, it therefore follows (a-la Godel) that meta-philosophy can make meaningful statements about philosophy which it can't make about itself. So, is the statement there are absolutes in philosophy a philosophical statement? I believe it is.

Admittedly, there's no algorithm for determining whether the statement there are absolutes in philosophy is philosophical, or meta-philosophical. How are we to then decide? My reason for believing it is, is because the statement goes to the very heart of philosophy. To answer it, either yes or no is to define philosophical enquiry. Knowing whether there are absolutes in philosophy strikes me as a quintessential philosophical question. I presume that you disagree with me.
I follow Hume in making a clear distinction between facts and abstracts:
Abstract axiomatic systems that generate theorems following deductive logic.
Factual systems that analyse sense data to generate ideas and concepts through inductive logic.
All too often these are conflated which leads to confusion. While there can be a connection between the two it can only be effected through a mapping procedure where the elements of one system are mapped onto elements of the other.
(eg "2+2=4" can be mapped onto "sheep in a field" to produce "2 sheep + 2 sheep = 4 sheep."

Mathematics is an abstract system and is what it is. To have expectations that somehow it should be more than that is to have false expectations. One false expectation was that somehow every mathematical statement could be proved to be either true or false. Quite why people had this expectation remains unclear. What Gödel did was to prove that this was not possible.

The model I use for mathematics is that it is a theorem generating machine that is constructed according to the axioms of the system. The theorems that it generates are then necessarily true within that system.

Factual systems need foundations too. (Call them axioms or absolutes if you like.), but the process for selecting them may be somewhat arbitrary. Some people might choose "I am" and "The world exists" as their foundations. Others might select "God exists" or perhaps " I am a brain in a vat". Kant chose 'time' and 'space' as two of his 'a priori' foundations.

For myself I choose a process: "The brain searches for and identifies patterns in sense data and chooses the best fit." I like it because it goes deeper than the others. Concepts such as time, space, the world exists, and I am are emergent from it. Also it is self justifying: The concept that 'the brain searches for and identifies the best pattern to fit the data' is itself the best pattern to fit the data.

(See http://bookstore.xlibris.com/Products/S ... adigm.aspx for details)
The Pattern Paradigm - yer can't beat it!
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Skydude
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by Skydude »

I am a Philosopher because I have a love for wisdom and knowledge. I am fairly unexperienced but I do seek to learn, not only from myself but from the ideas and experiences of others.
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Venividivici
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by Venividivici »

I am not a philosopher. I am simply a lover of wisdom. In other words, I am in one sense, and am not in another.
Saw038
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by Saw038 »

I believe anyone is philosopher if they seek to inquiry about the different facets of life.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by Burning ghost »

Skydude wrote:I am a Philosopher because I have a love for wisdom and knowledge. I am fairly unexperienced but I do seek to learn, not only from myself but from the ideas and experiences of others.
INexperienced not UNexperienced. English is a stupid language.
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gimal
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by gimal »

First of all we need to know what a philosopher is.
Platos stepchild
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by Platos stepchild »

Do I consider myself a philosopher? I'm not pretentious enough to make such a claim. It'd make me sound like a dilettante, sampling in cafeteria-style all the miseries and conundrums of humanity. I don't have to because I'm already there, living deeply inside one such conundrum.

I'm in incessant, chronic pain, which at times flares into an excruciating burning. It's hard to maintain my composure in public, because sometimes I yelp in agony, despite my best efforts. My doctor has given me medicines which really do help. The downside is, I get loopy and my intellect noticeably degrades.

The conundrum is, how do I choose; what's the criteria for making my choice? If I want to be the best man I can possibly be, which version of me does the trick: a doped up loon; or, a man who never knows when he'll wail and contort uncontrollably? There's no middle ground, here, which means my choice can't split the difference.

My philosophizing wears a bitter skin. When my mind becomes numb from my medicine, it's like trying to pick up a dime while wearing mittens. When the pain gets really intense, I become surly and even violent. I need to find an answer which decides whether I should be either a zombie, or a monster. I can't bear the hybrid I've become.

My ad hoc solution has been to waffle between the two possibilities. This can't be the best possible solution, though. I've yet to find a philosophically sound resolution to my conundrum. Mental constructs and pretty words crumble when confronted with so dire a choice. If philosophy has any real-life value, then why can't I find an answer?
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Burning ghost
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by Burning ghost »

gimal wrote:First of all we need to know what a philosopher is.
Probably not someone who looks up the word in a dictionary and says to themselves "Now I know!".

I consider myself ... but then find myself asking if I consider myself as X then the considering entity is the philosopher not me.

I like rats. I consider myself a rat. I like art. I consider myself an artist. I like science. I consider myself a scientist. I think most philosophy is utter rubbish. I don't consider myself a philosopher. I think the idea of "teaching" is stupid. I don't consider myself a teacher.

See a pattern?
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Fooloso4
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by Fooloso4 »

Platos stepchild, I am sorry to hear of your suffering. Too often we respond to the words of faceless participants without any thought to who they are and what prompts them to say what they say or to consider what may be behind the words.
I need to find an answer which decides whether I should be either a zombie, or a monster.
What do you value more, freedom from pain or clarity of mind? It sounds as if not only the medication but the pain interfere with your ability to think and act clearly. Which option can you more easily endure? Which option causes less harm to you and your relationship with others?
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LuckyR
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by LuckyR »

Platos stepchild wrote:Do I consider myself a philosopher? I'm not pretentious enough to make such a claim. It'd make me sound like a dilettante, sampling in cafeteria-style all the miseries and conundrums of humanity. I don't have to because I'm already there, living deeply inside one such conundrum.

I'm in incessant, chronic pain, which at times flares into an excruciating burning. It's hard to maintain my composure in public, because sometimes I yelp in agony, despite my best efforts. My doctor has given me medicines which really do help. The downside is, I get loopy and my intellect noticeably degrades.

The conundrum is, how do I choose; what's the criteria for making my choice? If I want to be the best man I can possibly be, which version of me does the trick: a doped up loon; or, a man who never knows when he'll wail and contort uncontrollably? There's no middle ground, here, which means my choice can't split the difference.

My philosophizing wears a bitter skin. When my mind becomes numb from my medicine, it's like trying to pick up a dime while wearing mittens. When the pain gets really intense, I become surly and even violent. I need to find an answer which decides whether I should be either a zombie, or a monster. I can't bear the hybrid I've become.

My ad hoc solution has been to waffle between the two possibilities. This can't be the best possible solution, though. I've yet to find a philosophically sound resolution to my conundrum. Mental constructs and pretty words crumble when confronted with so dire a choice. If philosophy has any real-life value, then why can't I find an answer?
To be honest, your circumstances probably force you to consider the Big Questions much more than a professional philosopher does/did, so you are likely more qualified to carry the title of "Philosopher" than many card carrying members of the Club.

Good luck to you.
"As usual... it depends."
Fooloso4
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by Fooloso4 »

LuckyR:
To be honest, your circumstances probably force you to consider the Big Questions much more than a professional philosopher does/did, so you are likely more qualified to carry the title of "Philosopher" than many card carrying members of the Club.
I have known professional philosophers who treat philosophy as an abstract intellectual game or skillful sophistic argumentation. I have, however, also known professional philosophers for whom philosophy is essential to their way of life. I have known professional philosophers who have experienced a great deal of pain, suffering, and hardship. I consider myself an outsider inside the field of professional philosophy. And although I am quite critical of what goes on in professional philosophy, I think it misleading and incorrect to be too broad in making generalizations about professional philosophers. For some it is just a profession like any other, but for some, admittedly a much smaller number, it is a way of life.
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LuckyR
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Re: Do you consider yourself a philosopher?

Post by LuckyR »

Fooloso4 wrote:LuckyR:
To be honest, your circumstances probably force you to consider the Big Questions much more than a professional philosopher does/did, so you are likely more qualified to carry the title of "Philosopher" than many card carrying members of the Club.
I have known professional philosophers who treat philosophy as an abstract intellectual game or skillful sophistic argumentation. I have, however, also known professional philosophers for whom philosophy is essential to their way of life. I have known professional philosophers who have experienced a great deal of pain, suffering, and hardship. I consider myself an outsider inside the field of professional philosophy. And although I am quite critical of what goes on in professional philosophy, I think it misleading and incorrect to be too broad in making generalizations about professional philosophers. For some it is just a profession like any other, but for some, admittedly a much smaller number, it is a way of life.
Hence why I used the word "many", instead of "all" or "most". In addition I was responding more to Plato's perspective on labels, than on the field of professional Philosophy, though I stand by my wording.
"As usual... it depends."
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